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Cancellation of Naval Academy Lecture by Ruth Ben-Ghiat Threatens Inst. Autonomy
- Aeolun 2y agoI kind of agree with the person in the article that says the politicians that meddled in the fact that the lecture would be given did the very thing they claim they were concerned about. That’s not the first time it happens. It’s always fine if they do it, but terrible if the other side does.
- wrs 2y agoNot to mention the irony of “wanting to avoid even appearing to violate Federal law”, given the person the politicians are concerned about.
- asdf123qweasd 2y agoThe problem with attempts to controll knowledge, aka limit it, is that it has a tendency to spiral. You limit information about this and that- some zealous partymonger goes astray and limits all the information related. Next you have a famine and because of the involved parties guilt about the dysfunction, knowledge is limited even further. You either have all the information, including the one about retardations going awry in the past. Or you do not and spiral down to become one of those figures in the history lectures doing bizar things, repeating past failures. Looking both ways in this comment. The whole narrative control thing of the left, which is completely blind to physical realities causing problems and makes everything a theater-society-production with a racist villian is almost as disgusting as the ahistoric "isolationism will solve our problems" of the right.
- defrost 2y agoAny thoughts on the "narrative control thing of the" US right as detailed in this article?
- A4ET8a8uTh0 2y agoFriend. After one of the more recent bigger political event in US, which, in more sane times, would have made most people pause, I asked people from 'the other side', if they would be willing to reconsider their current stance on 'speech', its limits and what is acceptable within society. They were not. I guess what I am saying is that you probably should not be surprised when some will eventually say 'what is good for the goose'. I am personally not there yet, but I assure you it is a tempting position to take.. And this is before we ignore the background of potential ww3, normal election cycle tension and unusual, but very potent, vibes of potential civil war. So... cool it with the US right, because you yourself are not helping. At all. More than that. You are actively making things worse. Good job?
- anon84873628 2y agoThere's a big difference between narratives plausibly based in fact and some shared version of reality - even if stretched and imperfect at times - versus narratives formed knowingly and deliberately out of lies. "Both sides are bad" is simply untrue. One side is definitely categorically worse.
- kthjaG 2y agoSo, her books compare Trump to Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, and people are surprised that the event was cancelled. Trump by the way is Netanyahu's favorite candidate. All U.S. media organizations attempt the "Trump is Hitler" shtick as a final Hail Mary because they sense that Harris is going to lose. Just like in 2016.
- wrs 2y agoThe Republicans’ shtick is that any criticism of Republicans is entirely partisan and should be ignored or suppressed.
- littlestymaar 2y agoAnd they do so while whining about “cancel culture” all the time and pretending to “defend free speech”…
- AvAn12 2y agoDid you not read that he just said he will use the military and government to jail his political opponents? Yesterday. So he may be different than Hitler in that he does not wear a moustach, but the promise to jail political rivals is a big problem. And no, there is not an equivalence to Trump’s current indictments - they are all based on his actual violation of actual laws - and they have yet to go to trial - verdicts have not been rendered, and he might be found not guilty. This is not the same as jailing or threatening to jail people who you simply suspect may not agree with you. Trump is a menace and if you think you will “get rich on crypto” if he does and or some other such fantasy, you might be in for disappointment- especially if he should randomly decide you are on his enemies list. Please don’t fall for this.
- klear 2y agoEveryone will agree that Trump makes silly comments! He made the same comments in 2016 and never even attempted to lock up anyone for the whole four years. The Democrats always say the right things, but proceeded to try to lock up Trump for the entire period of 2021-2024. Barking dogs don't bite, it seems that "Silent dogs bite" is also true.
- wang_li 2y agoGovernment institutions are not meant to be autonomous. Outside of a narrow set of explicitly political positions, everyone who is in government should be apolitical in the carrying out of their duties.
- wbl 2y agoThat is closely related to autonomy. And the service academies are serious academic institutions. Inviting speakers on military history is very valuable to cadets and midshipmen. Why wouldn't they do it to give their students a broader view of what it means to be an officer?
- wrs 2y agoHistorians who can’t analyze politics are useless, and a military education system that ignores history is ineffective.
- o11c 2y agoSpecifically, since this is a military institution, remember that all members swear (or affirm) an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, except Republicans".
- rootusrootus 2y agoSnark aside, I would mention that when I left the military they did not ask me to renounce the oath. While it can be argued that it is implied to be limited to your term of service due to other language contained within, I am of the opinion that the important bits about 'support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic' are permanent. Unless you'd like to renounce it and declare your allegiance more specifically to something else.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 2y agoI find it interesting. Basic google check suggests that Ben-Ghiat is a political commentator. If that is true and accurate then her presence and presentation at Naval Academy is at best an opinion and not strictly a 'lecture'. I have technically zero problem with her presenting, precisely because I am very, very pro-free speech, but this is akin to interpretative dancing representative performing at defcon.. kinda silly. edit: I will add one more thing to the lazy disagreements via negative points. If I am right, then her very presence there is political propaganda aimed for specific candidate. In other words, it is not clear whether she should be there at all.
- justin66 2y agoStrange comment. Is the argument that a PhD, professor and author of several books on any given topic is no longer a credible authority in their field after they act as a "political commentator?" And by extension, presumably, the most credible political commentators are the ones without any education or academic credentials? That all seems pretty dumb. > I am very, very pro-free speech I bet.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago<< > I am very, very pro-free speech I bet. *** I addressed commentator comment with another poster, but if you were to look at my other posts, it is not hard to see the way I lean. You would lose that bet friend.
- anon84873628 2y agoElsewhere you said you go where the argument takes you, but haven't responded to this one. Please find us any professor of social sciences who is not also a "commentator". The purpose of these studies is hypothesize new viewpoints and narratives through which to understand the world. There is no unbiased or apolitical view of history.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- adolph 2y ago“PEN America today sharply criticized some Republican members of Congress” The press release claims that the org sharply criticized but did not provide any evidence that actually occurred. Did they do this via a text message, visit offices or what?
- okintheory 2y agoIt's right there, in the press release: >>> Jonathan Friedman, Sy Syms director of PEN America’s U.S. Free Expression programs, said: “The irony cannot be lost here: government officials have used their positions to muscle out a scholar of authoritarianism from a prestigious lecture," <<<
- adolph 2y agoDid Friedman utter those words to any member of Congress? Was he at a podium in an empty room at midnight?
- justin66 2y ago"Ben-Ghiat has stated that she did not intend to discuss Trump or contemporary America during the lecture, noting that the event was to be strictly nonpartisan."
- throwawaymaths 2y agohttps://lucid.substack.com/p/the-real-reason-donald-trump-insults https://lucid.substack.com/p/the-real-reason-donald-trump-in... """ -The Real Reason Donald Trump Insults the U.S. Military - I am pleased to announce that I will be giving the Bancroft Lecture at the U.S. Naval Academy on Oct. 10. """
- justin66 2y agoAnd if you make it to the second sentence (I know I'm asking a lot): I will be speaking about what happens to militaries under authoritarian rule, touching on Fascist Italy, Pinochet's Chile and the Russian military during the war on Ukraine. This was, pretty plainly I think, meant to be note separate from the subject matter of the article whose title you found objectionable.
- throwawaymaths 2y agoAt the very least claiming neutrality after baking that sub stack title needs an explanation or apology, and even still the authorities involved are absolutely correct to cancel or at least postpone her lecture out of an abundance of caution to avoid a hatch act violation.
- justin66 2y ago> least claiming neutrality after baking that sub stack title needs an explanation or apology I don’t think the ability to deliver a nonpartisan lecture hinges on one’s “neutrality”, which is largely a fictional quality in human beings. > avoid a hatch act violation I don’t think it’s even hypothetically relevant to this case, but if recent years have taught us anything, it’s that nobody involved in US politics, law enforcement, or government is interested in seeing the Hatch Act enforced. I’d be delighted if that weren’t the case.
- themgt 2y agoIt's a bedrock of our system that the US military remain firmly under civil control and politically neutral. The article elides but deep-links through to Ben-Ghiat's Substack announcing the lecture, which is what set off the firestorm: - The Real Reason Donald Trump Insults the U.S. Military - I am pleased to announce that I will be giving the Bancroft Lecture at the U.S. Naval Academy on Oct. 10. This lecture is not open to the public. I will be speaking about what happens to militaries under authoritarian rule, touching on Fascist Italy, Pinochet's Chile and the Russian military during the war on Ukraine. _______________ That brings us to today's post, on why Donald Trump insults the military. ... Why does he do it? His authoritarian character, desire to destroy democratic values and ideals, and loyalty to autocrats who see the powerful U.S. military as an obstacle to their geopolitical aims. I can see both sides of the argument on cancellation, but it's frankly idiotic to announce your lecture to the Naval Academy in an essay you directly title and then expound on your criticism of a leading presidential candidate vis-a-vis the military, weaving that criticism into the very topic of the lecture you are to give to the military. The same would be true if the politician was Biden, Harris or anyone else. The military needs to stay a 10 foot pole away from politics. The alternative is incredibly dangerous. https://lucid.substack.com/p/the-real-reason-donald-trump-insults https://lucid.substack.com/p/the-real-reason-donald-trump-in...
- AlotOfReading 2y agoThe military can't stay away from politics. They're deeply embedded in the heart of American politics and to paraphrase clausewitz, war itself is politics by other means. Do you think Vietnam and the Iraqi war can be divorced from the political discussions that surrounded them? The military needs to be acutely aware the delicate politicsl balance their role requires. I don't see how you can do that without open discussions of politics.
- throwawaymaths 2y agoYou are talking past each other. GP is using politics in the "what is happening right now with specific players sense". You are talking about politics in "everything since Cicero with generality" sense. Both of you are correct. Military needs needs to stay out of the former and be aware of the latter.
- alephnerd 2y agoYou can agree or disagree with Ben-Ghiat's thesis, but legislative meddling in the autonomy of institutions that set American defense strategy is a horrible precedent to set. The whole point of these kinds of lectures and discussions are to spark debates and conversations among decisionmakers. It is especially ironic because Ben-Ghiat's research is explicitly about that - political meddling in military administration lead to degraded institutional capacity. Look at 10/7 in Israel or Russia's fiasco in Ukraine - both are examples of how military and intelligence capacity can be degraded by political meddling.
- throwawaymaths 2y ago> legislative meddling in the autonomy of institutions that set American defense strategy is a horrible precedent to set. This is exactly wrong. Legislators are supposed to intervene when an executive department comes dangerously close to breaking the law. This is doubly so for the military (Congress holds hearings on military action all the time, must authorize nonwar military action beyond 90 days, has special, stricter rules for military appropriations, etc.). In this specific case, the idea that the US military academies are "autonomous" from Congress is kind of an unserious argument (or, at best misinformed). To get a seat as a student you must get a letter of recommendation from a sitting legislator. All of the generals and admirals, including those in charge of the institutions are required to be nominated and confirmed by the US Congress before they take their positions.
- alephnerd 2y agoThere is NOTHING illegal about a civilian giving an academic lecture for other academics. The USNA is a military institution, but a significant portion of their faculty are civilians as well. This is why this is an egregious abuse of power.
- throwawaymaths 2y agoThe usna is a part of the executive branch and the executive cannot sponsor election related content (hatch act). The author posted a blog post referring to the lecture in question which called out the specific name of a candidate. If the author made such a reference during her lecture, even if by accident, the organizers, officers of the executive branch, would be at risk of prosecution for sponsoring an election related event, which would be a complete pain in the ass even if they would be found innocent. Cancelling the lecture was prudent. Maybe postponing the lecture would been a more politic choice, but it was still a reasonable thing to do.
- throwaway5752 2y agoWhat Republicans are doing is not normal and we are not safe from it in technology. If you think you should be able to moderate, or not turn over commenter data because of their political content, then you should be worried. It's no different that trying to plan a curriculum with guest lecturers. If they feel welcomed to intrude on this decision, then it won't stop there.
- whamlastxmas 2y agoI genuinely don’t see much difference in behavior between the two parties
- throwaway5752 2y agoI am disappointed by both parties but see clear differences in ideology and more importantly, respect for the law, due process, and civil rights. In particular, the full title of this article is, "Cancellation of Naval Academy Lecture by Ruth Ben-Ghiat at Behest of Republican Politicians Threatens Institutional Autonomy"
- whamlastxmas 2y agoI agree there are idealogical differences even though they’re very similar in important ways too. I just meant behavior, no ideas, were very similar
- unethical_ban 2y agoI genuinely can't... understand that kind of sentiment without specific examples, given how many examples we have that there are major differences. Public education, affordable healthcare, protection of the environment and recognition of climate change. At the meta level: one party is much more guilty of denying democratic norms, obstructing popular legislation in government for shrewd partisan purposes, and wanting to hold up reforms to government that would make it more democratic and modern. Specific examples of that last point: Florida banning any form of voting besides First past the post, which is one of the worst ways to vote for a candidate. But it entrenches the established parties.
- untangle 2y agoI graduated from "Annapolis" (AKA USNA, "The Boat School") in the 70's. My second career was in high-tech here in Silicon Valley. Let me state the "quiet part" of the Naval Academy's mission out loud: It aspires to train the Services' future admirals and generals. It is not a vocational school, nor is it really a college. It's something else. It strikes me that the relationship between flag-rank officers and their civilian (political) leaders is fair game. Having said that, the selection of this speaker is edgy. But it's the timing of the event that I think puts it in the bad-judgement-or-worse category. We used to call this "poor headwork." My recommendation would have been to postpone the event until next year, and then reexamine the issue more closely. And to do all of the above quietly.