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Russia has been doing this for a very long time. That's not the concerning thing. The concerning thing is that the US Government is apparently asleep at the whe

Russia has been doing this for a very long time. That's not the concerning thing. The concerning thing is that the US Government is apparently asleep at the wheel when it comes to protecting the US population from these attacks.

reducesuffering 2y ago
The US Gov isn't asleep. But half the populace deny it's happening (by their enemy #1 for their entire lifetime until 20 years ago) just because it helps them.
- ChumpGPT 2y ago
  It is amazing how soon half the folks who lived through the cold war don't realize it never ended. We are in the midst of a war right now with the same old foes and most of America doesn't get it but, they will soon enough. the next President is going to have lead the country through an incredibly long and difficult war. Book mark it...
ericb 2y ago
Agreed. From a game theory perspective, this needs to be tit-for-tat. Implement a fund dedicated to toppling hostile regimes and creating chaos for them via disinfo in their own countries. Then, measure disinfo operations in the US, and allocate the funds to retaliation in-kind as exactly as possible.
- IAmGraydon 2y ago
  That's sort of a digital MAD. An interesting idea. Beyond that, US sites which willingly allow the spread of misinformation should be heavily fined. Reddit, for example, is a complete cesspool of foreign influence campaigns. It's not like it's hard to pick up on. They target populations that are already likely to believe misinformation and conspiracies. The conspiracy subreddit, for example, is rife with obviously foreign accounts that come out of nowhere, post divisive misinformation tens or even hundreds of times per day, and the posts get thousands of upvotes out of nowhere. The idea is that if you seed a small contingent of the population with misinformation, they will do the rest of the work and spread it for you in the rest of the population. No, Reddit cannot do away with 100% of this, but it is absolutely clear that they aren't even trying to control it. That has to stop. A simple change like requiring phone verification before you can create an account (and not allowing Google voice numbers) would do a lot to quell this. They don't care. They just want the traffic.
  - lesuorac 2y ago
    Do note, this was the only actual piece of new information from the twitter files. Twitter would whitelist psy-op accounts so they wouldn't get banned [1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_Files#Nos._8%E2%80%939:_Relationship_with_the_U.S._government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_Files#Nos._8%E2%80%939...
- akira2501 2y ago
  > to toppling hostile regimes and creating chaos From a real world perspective you're being awfully cavalier with the lives of people who are just as much victims of their own government as you perceive yourself to be. > measure disinfo operations in the US Yet you take no stock of the same operations the US already runs in other parts of the world. What a petty short term victory you're aiming for.
  - ericb 2y ago
    > Yet you take no stock of the same operations the US already runs in other parts of the world. What a petty short term victory you're aiming for. Not at all. When the incentive becomes not to do it, then it will stop. > Yet you take no stock of the same operations the US already runs in other parts of the world. Nowhere did I advocate for doing so, or continuing to do so. In general, the US has followed a reckless know-it-all policy of regime change that has backfired many more times than it has ever worked, and is overall a net negative even for the US. This is different--it is a strategic public deterrent. It isn't directly goal oriented, only deterrence oriented, and any country will have a simple way to stop it at any time--stop putting disinfo into the US infosphere. And in fact, this works better if the US stops doing these things for any other purpose.
fragmede 2y ago
FEMA put up a rumor dispelling page to quash rumors in the wake of the mid-October hurricanes. https://www.fema.gov/disaster/recover/rumor/hurricane-rumor-response https://www.fema.gov/disaster/recover/rumor/hurricane-rumor-... Not sure how to get people to read that before sharing misinformation, unfortunately.
- lesuorac 2y ago
  > Rumor: FEMA will automatically provide $1200 if you have been without power for 24 hours. > Rumor: FEMA will only provide $750 to disaster survivors to support their recovery. One would think as you start to hear conflicting rumors that something was up. Although I guess one would also think after so many hurricanes, Floridians would actually know what FEMA does...
- wakawaka28 2y ago
  If FEMA or any government agency was at fault in any way, would you expect them to admit it? I'm not going to endorse any particular theory but your view of things is way too simplistic. You simply cannot trust an agency, or the government as a whole, to investigate itself. Governments break their own laws constantly.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    There's a difference between, say, Watergate, and making and spreading memes that say FEMA will only give you $750 if your house gets destroyed. If FEMA is violating their own policies, that's one thing, and very much should get investigated, but rumors are being spread that are just made up.
    - wakawaka28 2y ago
      Personally I have seen plenty of first-hand accounts from people that FEMA is nowhere in sight, they were turned down for the $750 per household (which appears to be a very narrow benefit for uninsured homes), and when FEMA was around they were seizing supplies and generally getting in the way. The same kind of thing happened surrounding the Maui fires. The people from that disaster are still complaining about the FEMA response. They are most likely being forced off of their very valuable land, and the government is behind it all. In the early stages of dealing with a disaster, rumor is an important source of information. When communication is cut off and travel is restricted, what exactly do you expect? Especially when government misconduct is suspected. Again, if you give government the power to suppress criticism, it often will. Regardless of whether the rumors are substantiated or not, this is America and people have the right to say what is on their mind even if it hurts the feelings of FEMA. To listen to FEMA, the rumors about them are more devastating than the actual disaster. From the start they took a position of "this criticism is interfering with our work" which is a gross exaggeration at best, and a pernicious lie in the minds of anyone with common sense. FEMA has long been a subject of controversy, as they seize supplies donated for disasters and redistrubute them or even sell them: https://www.facingsouth.org/2008/06/gulf-coast-nonprofits-left-out-of-the-loop-as-fema-gives-away-85-million-in-katrina-supplies https://www.facingsouth.org/2008/06/gulf-coast-nonprofits-le... You should look into this as well, a controversy involving FEMA's role in hypothetically putting Americans in concentration camps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_84 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_84 The government has absolutely no problem with trampling on your rights under the pretense of a disaster. They'll screw you over. As far as I remember in any disaster before a couple of years ago, including Hurricane Katrina, FEMA has not stopped to demanding that people refrain from criticism. This is a modern phenomenon. The government is always scare-mongering about "misinformation" because they want the power of censorship. Legacy media is on board because they wish to crush any independent competitors that threaten that dying industry.
Aeolun 2y ago
Wut? They’re literally fighting a proxy war against that enemy right now. There’s only so much you can do unless you want to make the internet not the internet any more (a… great wall, if you will).
- IAmGraydon 2y ago
  The US is helping Ukraine defend itself. We are not fighting a war against Russia. We are fighting a Russian invasion.
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    > The US is helping Ukraine defend itself. True. > We are not fighting a war against Russia. We are fighting (and assisting others fighting) a multifront, miltitheater war against an axis consisting, most notably, of Russia, Iran, and North Korea and various of their proxies.
wakawaka28 2y ago
Lol the US government launches psyops on its own population as well as every other population in the world. They can and do get things taken down from social media for all kinds of reasons, mostly illegitimate ones. If they fail to take down or suppress some information that they don't like, it is most likely a fluke.

reducesuffering 2y ago

The US Gov isn't asleep. But half the populace deny it's happening (by their enemy #1 for their entire lifetime until 20 years ago) just because it helps them.

ChumpGPT 2y ago
It is amazing how soon half the folks who lived through the cold war don't realize it never ended. We are in the midst of a war right now with the same old foes and most of America doesn't get it but, they will soon enough. the next President is going to have lead the country through an incredibly long and difficult war. Book mark it...

ericb 2y ago

Agreed. From a game theory perspective, this needs to be tit-for-tat. Implement a fund dedicated to toppling hostile regimes and creating chaos for them via disinfo in their own countries. Then, measure disinfo operations in the US, and allocate the funds to retaliation in-kind as exactly as possible.

IAmGraydon 2y ago
That's sort of a digital MAD. An interesting idea. Beyond that, US sites which willingly allow the spread of misinformation should be heavily fined. Reddit, for example, is a complete cesspool of foreign influence campaigns. It's not like it's hard to pick up on. They target populations that are already likely to believe misinformation and conspiracies. The conspiracy subreddit, for example, is rife with obviously foreign accounts that come out of nowhere, post divisive misinformation tens or even hundreds of times per day, and the posts get thousands of upvotes out of nowhere. The idea is that if you seed a small contingent of the population with misinformation, they will do the rest of the work and spread it for you in the rest of the population. No, Reddit cannot do away with 100% of this, but it is absolutely clear that they aren't even trying to control it. That has to stop. A simple change like requiring phone verification before you can create an account (and not allowing Google voice numbers) would do a lot to quell this. They don't care. They just want the traffic.
- lesuorac 2y ago
  Do note, this was the only actual piece of new information from the twitter files. Twitter would whitelist psy-op accounts so they wouldn't get banned [1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_Files#Nos._8%E2%80%939:_Relationship_with_the_U.S._government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_Files#Nos._8%E2%80%939...
akira2501 2y ago
> to toppling hostile regimes and creating chaos From a real world perspective you're being awfully cavalier with the lives of people who are just as much victims of their own government as you perceive yourself to be. > measure disinfo operations in the US Yet you take no stock of the same operations the US already runs in other parts of the world. What a petty short term victory you're aiming for.
- ericb 2y ago
  > Yet you take no stock of the same operations the US already runs in other parts of the world. What a petty short term victory you're aiming for. Not at all. When the incentive becomes not to do it, then it will stop. > Yet you take no stock of the same operations the US already runs in other parts of the world. Nowhere did I advocate for doing so, or continuing to do so. In general, the US has followed a reckless know-it-all policy of regime change that has backfired many more times than it has ever worked, and is overall a net negative even for the US. This is different--it is a strategic public deterrent. It isn't directly goal oriented, only deterrence oriented, and any country will have a simple way to stop it at any time--stop putting disinfo into the US infosphere. And in fact, this works better if the US stops doing these things for any other purpose.

fragmede 2y ago

FEMA put up a rumor dispelling page to quash rumors in the wake of the mid-October hurricanes. https://www.fema.gov/disaster/recover/rumor/hurricane-rumor-response https://www.fema.gov/disaster/recover/rumor/hurricane-rumor-... Not sure how to get people to read that before sharing misinformation, unfortunately.

lesuorac 2y ago
> Rumor: FEMA will automatically provide $1200 if you have been without power for 24 hours. > Rumor: FEMA will only provide $750 to disaster survivors to support their recovery. One would think as you start to hear conflicting rumors that something was up. Although I guess one would also think after so many hurricanes, Floridians would actually know what FEMA does...
wakawaka28 2y ago
If FEMA or any government agency was at fault in any way, would you expect them to admit it? I'm not going to endorse any particular theory but your view of things is way too simplistic. You simply cannot trust an agency, or the government as a whole, to investigate itself. Governments break their own laws constantly.
- fragmede 2y ago
  There's a difference between, say, Watergate, and making and spreading memes that say FEMA will only give you $750 if your house gets destroyed. If FEMA is violating their own policies, that's one thing, and very much should get investigated, but rumors are being spread that are just made up.
  - wakawaka28 2y ago
    Personally I have seen plenty of first-hand accounts from people that FEMA is nowhere in sight, they were turned down for the $750 per household (which appears to be a very narrow benefit for uninsured homes), and when FEMA was around they were seizing supplies and generally getting in the way. The same kind of thing happened surrounding the Maui fires. The people from that disaster are still complaining about the FEMA response. They are most likely being forced off of their very valuable land, and the government is behind it all. In the early stages of dealing with a disaster, rumor is an important source of information. When communication is cut off and travel is restricted, what exactly do you expect? Especially when government misconduct is suspected. Again, if you give government the power to suppress criticism, it often will. Regardless of whether the rumors are substantiated or not, this is America and people have the right to say what is on their mind even if it hurts the feelings of FEMA. To listen to FEMA, the rumors about them are more devastating than the actual disaster. From the start they took a position of "this criticism is interfering with our work" which is a gross exaggeration at best, and a pernicious lie in the minds of anyone with common sense. FEMA has long been a subject of controversy, as they seize supplies donated for disasters and redistrubute them or even sell them: https://www.facingsouth.org/2008/06/gulf-coast-nonprofits-left-out-of-the-loop-as-fema-gives-away-85-million-in-katrina-supplies https://www.facingsouth.org/2008/06/gulf-coast-nonprofits-le... You should look into this as well, a controversy involving FEMA's role in hypothetically putting Americans in concentration camps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_84 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_84 The government has absolutely no problem with trampling on your rights under the pretense of a disaster. They'll screw you over. As far as I remember in any disaster before a couple of years ago, including Hurricane Katrina, FEMA has not stopped to demanding that people refrain from criticism. This is a modern phenomenon. The government is always scare-mongering about "misinformation" because they want the power of censorship. Legacy media is on board because they wish to crush any independent competitors that threaten that dying industry.

Aeolun 2y ago

Wut? They’re literally fighting a proxy war against that enemy right now. There’s only so much you can do unless you want to make the internet not the internet any more (a… great wall, if you will).

IAmGraydon 2y ago
The US is helping Ukraine defend itself. We are not fighting a war against Russia. We are fighting a Russian invasion.
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  > The US is helping Ukraine defend itself. True. > We are not fighting a war against Russia. We are fighting (and assisting others fighting) a multifront, miltitheater war against an axis consisting, most notably, of Russia, Iran, and North Korea and various of their proxies.

wakawaka28 2y ago

Lol the US government launches psyops on its own population as well as every other population in the world. They can and do get things taken down from social media for all kinds of reasons, mostly illegitimate ones. If they fail to take down or suppress some information that they don't like, it is most likely a fluke.