4 ms·

If the court order specifies that it be taken down worldwide, and the court order isn't definitely illegal according to Indian law, and the Wikimedia Foundation

by jprete 2y ago

If the court order specifies that it be taken down worldwide, and the court order isn't definitely illegal according to Indian law, and the Wikimedia Foundation has operations in India that they want to preserve, they may not have a choice.

mouse_ 2y ago
I get that pulling out of India would be an incredibly difficult move to even consider. But abandoning all principles should be as well.
- okasaki 2y ago
  Why is following other countries' laws viewed as "abandoning all principles"? A few days ago Linux removed all Russian maintainers to follow US laws. Has the Linux Foundation abandoned all principles? Should they have fought the US government?
  - stoperaticless 2y ago
    US laws is not “other countries” laws. Linus lives in US. … and Finland is on the same side as US anyway, might have similar views. Btw. Did Linux ban all Russian speaking people or Russian citizen or people with Russian IP addresses?
    - dekhn 2y ago
      The intent was to remove people of any nationality who work for Russian companies from being kernel maintainers. The way they rolled that out didn't match their intent, though.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - alwayslikethis 2y ago
    In some sense, they did. The spirit of free software is inherently pro-freedom and against any external actors being able to pressure your entity into submission. This includes any and all legal threats or orders. Look at the history of PGP for an instance of fighting the US government to defend a greater principle. In practice you can't fight everyone all at once. On the net it may be better to compromise on some to defend others you cherish more.
  - tomrod 2y ago
    Because of mutual incompatibility of said laws and the inappropriate exercise of alleged sovereignty.
  - driverdan 2y ago
    > Has the Linux Foundation abandoned all principles? All? No, but certainly some. > Should they have fought the US government? Yes
greatgib 2y ago
I don't think that the Indian court has legitimacy to block the article to be displayed worldwide. It has no jurisdicition for the citizens of all other countries and also no jurisdiction against content that is not hosted in India. But I guess that it was maybe more convenient for the wikimedia foundation to do it like that instead of doing geofencing that they might not have?
- stoperaticless 2y ago
  You want operate in country X, you must comply with country X laws or be ready to be percecuted. (From notice, to confiscation of servers, to executions; depends on the X and how inconvenient you are)
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    More broadly, if country X has the capacity to enforce its rulings against you, it is risky to assume that they do not apply to you, irrespective of what you think should be the case base on how you operate, where you are located, your citizenship, etc. Many states have a wide variety of provisions applying national law in ways that might be contrary to all kinds of naive assumptions about how their jurisdiction should be limited
    - stoperaticless 2y ago
      Yup. Jurisdiction is like good manners, there is plenty of those, but it is not some kind of fundamental law of nature.
- dekhn 2y ago
  This is something I've been curious about for a while. GDPR, IIUC, makes an EU law apply to things that happen inside the US (for example, EU person flies to the US and uses Facebook on US-housed servers with data stored in the US, GDPR apparently considers that in-scope for the law).
  - jkaplowitz 2y ago

by jprete 2y ago

mouse_ 2y ago

I get that pulling out of India would be an incredibly difficult move to even consider. But abandoning all principles should be as well.

okasaki 2y ago
Why is following other countries' laws viewed as "abandoning all principles"? A few days ago Linux removed all Russian maintainers to follow US laws. Has the Linux Foundation abandoned all principles? Should they have fought the US government?
- stoperaticless 2y ago
  US laws is not “other countries” laws. Linus lives in US. … and Finland is on the same side as US anyway, might have similar views. Btw. Did Linux ban all Russian speaking people or Russian citizen or people with Russian IP addresses?
  - dekhn 2y ago
    The intent was to remove people of any nationality who work for Russian companies from being kernel maintainers. The way they rolled that out didn't match their intent, though.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- alwayslikethis 2y ago
  In some sense, they did. The spirit of free software is inherently pro-freedom and against any external actors being able to pressure your entity into submission. This includes any and all legal threats or orders. Look at the history of PGP for an instance of fighting the US government to defend a greater principle. In practice you can't fight everyone all at once. On the net it may be better to compromise on some to defend others you cherish more.
- tomrod 2y ago
  Because of mutual incompatibility of said laws and the inappropriate exercise of alleged sovereignty.
- driverdan 2y ago
  > Has the Linux Foundation abandoned all principles? All? No, but certainly some. > Should they have fought the US government? Yes

greatgib 2y ago

I don't think that the Indian court has legitimacy to block the article to be displayed worldwide. It has no jurisdicition for the citizens of all other countries and also no jurisdiction against content that is not hosted in India. But I guess that it was maybe more convenient for the wikimedia foundation to do it like that instead of doing geofencing that they might not have?

stoperaticless 2y ago
You want operate in country X, you must comply with country X laws or be ready to be percecuted. (From notice, to confiscation of servers, to executions; depends on the X and how inconvenient you are)
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  More broadly, if country X has the capacity to enforce its rulings against you, it is risky to assume that they do not apply to you, irrespective of what you think should be the case base on how you operate, where you are located, your citizenship, etc. Many states have a wide variety of provisions applying national law in ways that might be contrary to all kinds of naive assumptions about how their jurisdiction should be limited
  - stoperaticless 2y ago
    Yup. Jurisdiction is like good manners, there is plenty of those, but it is not some kind of fundamental law of nature.
dekhn 2y ago
This is something I've been curious about for a while. GDPR, IIUC, makes an EU law apply to things that happen inside the US (for example, EU person flies to the US and uses Facebook on US-housed servers with data stored in the US, GDPR apparently considers that in-scope for the law).
- jkaplowitz 2y ago