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Ironclad link between red meat and cancer identified
- mattmaroon 2y agoAt first I was mad about the use of the term ironclad, because nothing in this field is ever really ironclad, and then I read the article and realized it’s actually a clever pun.
- philipov 2y agoClever is not the word I'd choose here. "Misleading and irresponsible" pun would be more accurate.
- ethbr1 2y agoJokes tend to be irresponsible.
- mattmaroon 2y agoThose aren’t mutually exclusive. It’s only misleading if you don’t read the article though I guess that’s likely 9 of ten people who see the headline.
- siskdncofnf 2y agoTitle says read meat, article says it’s actually the iron and genetic factors?
- ericmcer 2y agoAlso it doesn't cause the cancer, but iron expedites growth of colorectal cancer cells? Seems clickbaity if I am reading it right.
- SoftTalker 2y agoIron is an essential part of your diet if you want to continue living. So it boils down to genetics, which is probably most cancers.
- mattmaroon 2y agoA lot of things that are necessary for living to become harmful in too high of a quantity.
- sevensor 2y agoThere are lots of different irons though, as I recall from chemistry class. I wouldn’t assume that every form of iron you ingest is equally carcinogenic.
- lizknope 2y agoOf course you need iron to live but many times too much of something leads to bad consequences. The previous studies I have looked at point to heme vs non-heme iron sources. The heme iron comes from animal sources and is easier for the human body to absorb than plant based non-heme iron but the heme iron may be leading to cancer growth.
- SoftTalker 2y agoToxicity from too much iron is something different and very well known for a long time.
- toomuchtodo 2y agoNext step is genetic statistical analysis of the cohorts susceptible to iron induced cancer to determine gene therapy targets.
- aabhay 2y ago> So, to reiterate, the researchers found that the iron in red meat reactivated telomerase in colorectal cancer cells, thus driving the progression of the cancer.
- vharuck 2y agoResearchers have long known about the positive correlation between how much red meat a person eats and that person's chance of developing colorectal cancer. There are plenty of large behavioral health surveys that show this. So the audience for this article will understand the context. Heck, they might even find this article by searching "red meat colorectal cancer" in a database.
- mfer 2y agoIt's more complicated than that. For example, why do those who eat mostly plant based (I mean real plants and not processed foods) have lower rates of cancer if both sides get iron? Iron is essential to live. It could have something to do with amount. For example, Iron from animal products is easier for the body to absorb and there are MUCH higher levels per gram (e.g., beef has 7x the iron kale does). Is it too much iron? It could be type. You have FE2+, FE3+, heme iron, non-heme iron, etc. This article points to FE3+. Is there something more there? Is it some combination of things? There's a lot we don't know.
- adrian_b 2y agoThe study says only the oxidized Fe(III) ions are harmful. Most iron in food, except that from blood or red muscles is in the form of reduced Fe(II) ions.
- adrian_b 2y agoThe study says that only the Fe(III) ions are harmful. Most iron that can be found in water or in food is in the form of Fe(II) ions, because all minerals that contain Fe(III) ions are insoluble. The only components of food that are rich in Fe(III) are the hemoglobin from blood and the myoglobin from the "red" muscles, which are used by all vertebrates to transport or store oxygen.
- ck2 2y agoIsn't heme the iron in meat the same heme that is in fish? People eat tuna and other sea fish daily (look at Japan) and not cancer causing?
- LoKSET 2y agoSure, but fish contain several times less iron per weight.
- ibejoeb 2y ago>We show how iron-(Fe3+) in collusion with genetic factors reactivates telomerase, providing a molecular mechanism for the association between iron overload and increased incidence of colorectal cancers So I guess the link between kale and cancer has been identified.
- oregano 2y agoThe (heme-rich) iron you get from eating red meat is actually quite different from the (non-heme) iron you get from veggies. Edit* also- I’m pretty sure fe3 iron sources - particularly dairy cause your body to hoard more iron which will result in more heme iron
- ibejoeb 2y agofe3+ definitely exists in non-animal matter too. We can talk about quantity, whatever, but my commentary is intended to criticize the baiting and conclusion-drawing.
- byearthithatius 2y agoIt exists at MUCH SMALLER amounts. Their conclusion drawing should be based on an amount should it not? Lead from shooting my gun is not going to damage me the same as eating a bunch of handfulls of pure lead because of the AMOUNT that my body will end up processing. Quantity is so key its absurd to overlook it.
- adrian_b 2y agoFe(III) ions exist in all the cells of all aerobic living beings, for instance in the molecules of the so-called cytochromes, which are used in the cellular respiration. Nevertheless, the amount of Fe(III) that exists in almost all cells is extremely small in comparison with the amount of Fe(III) that exists in the blood of any vertebrate, where it is used to transport dioxygen in the entire body. The "red" muscles also contain a similar protein to that of the red blood cells, which is used to store dioxygen. Therefore any kind of food that contains either blood or muscles rich in myoglobin will contain much more Fe(III) than anything else.
- biotinker 2y agoThis is interesting. The link they claim is that it's the iron in the meat, specifically in the form of Fe3+, which activates telomerase in colorectal cancer, advancing the cancer (or causing individual cancer cells to proliferate when they may have been naturally killed off). The huge question this leaves for me, which isn't addressed at all, is why we do not see similar associations with colorectal cancer with other foods high in iron? On a per-serving basis, foods like spinach contain far, far more iron than beef [0]. Furthermore, beef contains mostly heme-based iron, which is chelated Fe2+, not Fe3+. More broadly, most non-heme iron is in Fe3+ form, and must be reduced to Fe2+ in your digestive system [1]. Why don't we see this cancer associated with other iron-rich foods? Also in [1] is mentioned that consuming Vitamin C assists the reduction of Fe3+ to Fe2+, I wonder if we will find that high levels of vitamin C consumption reduce the risk of colorectal cancer. [0] https://www.dietaryguidelines.gov/resources/2020-2025-dietary-guidelines-online-materials/food-sources-select-nutrients/food-sources-iron https://www.dietaryguidelines.gov/resources/2020-2025-dietar... [1] https://www.crnusa.org/sites/default/files/files/resources/28-CRNVMS3-IRON.pdf https://www.crnusa.org/sites/default/files/files/resources/2...
- jjmarr 2y agoHave studies been run on spinach consumption and cancer?
- ethbr1 2y agoIt'll be curious if there are compensating components that are co-ingested with spinach et al. that are not with red meat. I.e. perhaps all high-iron foods promote colorectal cancer, but some foods also contain anti-cancer factors that zero out the net effect
- nkrisc 2y ago> On a per-serving basis, foods like spinach contain far, far more iron than beef [0] And how many servings of each dies the average person eat? Based only on my personal observations, I could believe that people eat enough red meat to far overcompensate for the differences per-serving.
- adrian_b 2y ago
- alwa 2y ago“Iron”-clad in this headline apparently being more of a pun on the iron-based mechanism than a strong claim about the significance of the relationship
- jasfi 2y agoThe headline is actually misleading (from the original article). The first paragraph clarifies that they're talking about the overconsumption of read meat.
- consteval 2y agoI think that should be obvious. Overconsumption of red meat has been associated with, like, every bad thing ever. Generally, nutrition advice only really focuses on overconsumption. There's basically nothing that's always bad to eat or drink, the only exception I know of is alcohol. And even that is really really low risk if you drink just a little.
- Culonavirus 2y agoBrb gotta wolf down a bowl of spinach and kale after hearing the news..... wait
- 0xDEAFBEAD 2y agoA typical burger has 2.39mg of iron: https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/742264/nutrients https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/742264/n... The tolerable upper iron intake for an adult is 45mg: https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Iron-HealthProfessional/ https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Iron-HealthProfessional/ So try not to eat more than 19 burgers per day.
- bluedino 2y agoDon Gorske is only up to 34,000 lifetime Big Macs
- pfannkuchen 2y agoBaseless theory: Does eating mammal desensitize the immune system to “not me” mammal cells in a way that slightly alters the recognition fidelity of “not me” cancer cells? Our consumption of mammal meat is quantitatively, though not qualitatively, out of spec for human biology.
- neallindsay 2y agoI'd never thought of telomere decay inhibiting cancer growth, but it makes a lot of sense. So many of the ways our biology can fail are also "load bearing bugs" that can't be fixed without negative repercussions.
- mrangle 2y agoWait until everyone hears about the iron fortification that takes real resolve to avoid when buying processed foods. Down to most that you will get at Whole Foods, at least after Amazon acquired it. I've been chelating iron for a few years now, on and off. It's a subtractive approach to antioxidant protection and it helps. If you give blood regularly, it should have the same effect. In the past, people may have noticed some health rejuvenation after a survivable injury that caused some blood loss.
- rsync 2y agoThis is interesting ... Would you expand on, or clarify, what you are trying to say here: "It's a subtractive approach to antioxidant protection and it helps." I will note that there are, in fact, observed benefits that seem to be linked to regular blood-lets, such as one would experience if they regularly gave blood. I don't have my own opinion on this but I find it interesting ...
- mrangle 2y agoNon-regular iron (and other divalent metal) chelation via oral supplement. Usually only when I'm feeling off, haven't done it in awhile, want some help with sleep, or have been eating a lot of fortified foods.
- jenniferCrawdad 2y agoSomeone once told me "Anytime you feel defensive when you're not being attacked, that's a feeling you should examine." There's an awful lot of defensive comments in here! Nobody's forcing you to stop eating red meat. If you feel ambivalent or defensive about that choice, it's fine and healthy to say "I know eating this red meat is riskier than eating white meat or a vegetarian meal, but I'm going to choose to eat it anyway because that's my preference." What I'd urge you NOT to do is to try to deny or belittle the source that's providing the information that makes you uncomfortable. That leads to all kinds of bad mental patterns!
- vurtdee 2y agoThis research, and increasing its entrance into the zeitgeist, is also valuable to give doctors a foundation to “prescribe” diet changes. When confronted with chemo, it has been my experience that, doctors are reluctant to talk about nutrition. (I speculate, over a concern for their own ignorance, ala risking getting caught up in fad or woo science) Sometimes even going hard in the other direction, saying “eat whatever you want!”, when study after study show a positive correlation with nutrition based methods targeting specific cancers and complementing certain chemo “cocktail”s.
- Herodotus38 2y agoHere is a direct link to the research article for those looking in the comments: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38885349/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38885349/
- _yb2s 2y agoHigh iron intake also seems to be implicated in cardiovascular disease, and may be one of the reasons it is more prevalent in men, as women lose iron during menstruation, whereas men tend to accumulate it over time. Donating blood may be a good way to deal with this. It seems unreasonable to pin this concern on red meat in particular- especially since so many people also take iron supplements and eat iron fortified processed foods. Instead I think it makes sense to look at your bloodwork- and then adjust iron intake and or donate blood regularly. I’d bet you can still eat a steak many times per week and have an overall fairly low, or even too low iron intake. It takes about a full pound of steak every day just to meet the iron RDA for adult men, which is much lower than for young women.
- adrian_b 2y agoThe iron supplements contain reduced Fe(II) ions, not the oxidized Fe(III) ions identified as harmful by this study.
- _yb2s 2y agoI'm skeptical of this, as I don't see how the oxidation state from the food will influence the resulting oxidation state once it is absorbed and in the blood stream, or in a cell. For digestive absorption Fe3+ is reduced to Fe2+, and then it gets reoxidized to Fe3+ after digestive absorption. I would expect that different forms of dietery iron- reduced or not, protein bound or not, etc. would affect how well they are absorbed, but not affect the resulting oxidation state after absorption. I suppose I would need more details on exactly how they think the iron is being transported to the cells in these colon cancer situations.
- thegrim33 2y agoWell the article title implies the consumption of "all" red meat is linked to cancer, while the actual study opens with stating that it's over consumption of iron-rich meat which is linked to cancer, but the actual study then never even bothers to define what they consider to be "over consumption".
- adrian_b 2y agoWhy has this been flagged? The research paper "Iron-(Fe3+)-Dependent Reactivation of Telomerase Drives Colorectal Cancers" seems perfectly legit and it solves a well-known mystery. The actual research paper: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11450372/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11450372/
- willy_k 2y agoMy guess would be the misleading nature of the “ironclad” in the title, it being a pun on the mechanism of the link rather than a claim as to the strength of the link.
- PaywallBuster 2y agoPD Mangan is often advocating meat heavy diet but doing regular blood donations to control iron levels https://twitter.com/Mangan150 https://twitter.com/Mangan150 Would be interesting to study that
- DMckee1947 2y agoIf the meat is organic grass fed the study might be valid. If the meat in the study is not, there will be herbicide, pesticide, hormone, and antibiotic residues which render the study useless.