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This is often repeated but is historically VERY incorrect. Yes, Israel does lobbying in the states and does influence (like every other country). The current Is

This is often repeated but is historically VERY incorrect. Yes, Israel does lobbying in the states and does influence (like every other country). The current Israeli government is indeed terrible and blatant at that. However, Israel left Gaza in 2005 with no deal as part of US pressure (which led to the current situation). Israel offered a Palestinians a country which included east Jerusalem twice based on US pressure. Israel left Lebanon alone due to such pressure. Israel didn't attack Lebanon for a year and tried to settle due to US pressure despite an average of 25 rockets per day towards civilian population. Imagine a country being attacked and fired on for nearly 20 years (by Hamas) and keeping reposes "moderate". That's US pressure and influence right there. Israel delayed going into Rafah due to US pressure, it turns out Sinwar and quite a few hostages were there... The reason it seems that US pressure isn't working is mostly because no one knows what to do exactly. Hostages are still held by Hamas. Hezbollah is still firing rockets/drones even now. I'm 100% for a hostage exchange but right now there's no deal, part of that is because of Netanyahu (who is terrible) but not all of it. The US can't fire Netanyahu (I wish they could...), and that's a problem. They want to strengthen anti-Netanyahu forces within Israel while still moderating its actions, that's a very tight rope to walk on.

throwaway920333 2y ago
Israel never left Gaza. They surrounded it. They controlled the entire land border and didn't let ships sail or planes take off from Gaza. It's as if, after a prison riot, all of the guards just said fuck 'em and decamped to a perimeter around the prison with machine guns with orders to shoot to kill. Gaza is way too small and densely populated to be remotely self-sufficient. Now, just to short-circuit the reply chain, you're going to say that Hamas would have just used the borders to move in weapons. Sure, that's true. In fact, they dug a bunch of tunnels under the Israeli controlled border crossings and smuggled in a bunch of weapons. Normal stuff like food and medicine though were constantly blocked or delayed. By the way, I don't know how to solve this problem well at this point. Both sides have done enough evil shit to each other that they will want to kill each other for generations. Israel though, has never withdrawn from Gaza, and Israel has never agreed to abide by the terms of UN Resolution 242 that obligates them to withdraw from the 1967 occupied territories. What I expect to happen based on the ground reality and statements from members of the Israeli government is that the Palestinians in Gaza will either die or have their lives be made so intolerable that they leave, and then Israel will annex the land, just as they have in Jerusalem and many areas of the West Bank.
- weatherlite 2y ago
  Israel did withdraw from Lebanon though, this wasn't effective at all at promoting peace as we're now seeing, and same thing has happened in Gaza; Israel did uproot all the settlers from Gaza and there was no single Israeli soldier left in Gaza - you can say the Gaza withdrawal was incomplete but saying it never happened at all is incorrect. Unfortunately Israelis only learned that withdrawals from enemies who have sworn to destroy you only make things worse for them.
- invalidname 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
    > As long as Hamas exists in a functioning form there can be no peace. I think the big problem with this approach is that actions taken now, which lead to deaths, lead to the friends & family of said people becoming more radicalised and thus to more terror attacks/wars in the future. I read recently in the FT that 60% of current Hamas fighters have lost family to previous conflicts, suggesting that this isn't going to end. And more generally, it's basically impossible for conventional armies to defeat guerilla fighters who have the support of the population (c.f. Irish/English conflicts, Iraq, Afghanisation (multiple times) etc). Like, fundamentally the only way this can end is through either extermination or negotiation. Given the relative power imbalances, it'll be extermination of the Palestinians, which would be terrible (and incredibly depressing given that a lot of Israeli citizens are descended from survivors of the Holocausts and the various pogroms in European history).
    - invalidname 2y ago
      I used to be of that mindset and no longer am. Hamas killed more people in a single day than the IRA killed in its entire existence. The Irish conflict which is more similar to the conflict Israel has in the west bank, is mostly a territorial conflict. If it were true that violence breeds violence then Jews would have blown up post war Germany with suicide vests. It was still filled with Nazis and their collaborators. Hamas is a different story, there's no amount of negotiations or compromise that will placate a fanatic. They will probably keep doing these things forever just like Isis didn't fully go away. But once the leadership got cut down Isis found it much harder to pull off the same level of terror. I agree that this needs to be a dual motion. Young frustrated people are kindle for these organizations and this won't work without a peace process that would give hope to the people. That's why I don't have any faith in the current Israeli government. I hope it can be replaced so there would be a parallel process that would help rebuild and pave a way for peace again.
aguaviva 2y ago
Israel offered a Palestinians a country which included east Jerusalem twice based on US pressure. On which occasions?
- invalidname 2y ago
  There were two separate offers made by Barak to Arafat in 2000 and by Olmert to Abu Mazen in 2008.
  - dunekid 2y ago
    So kind of them to offer freedom, and sovereignty, both taken by themselves. What a moral high ground they have! Did they offer reparations too, for the ethnic cleansing in Jaffa, and Haifa, and numerous other villages and cities? I am sure they would even respawn the murdered Palestinian children.
    - invalidname 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - CapricornNoble 2y ago
        > Most of the Palestinians who fled in 1948 did so because of Arab armies who urged them to move so they can kill the Jews more easily. That backfired. Those who stayed are Israeli citizens and always have been. Those who fled couldn't come back because the borders were sealed due to a war their leaders chose to start. You mention 1948....but what happened in 1946, and 1947? Aren't those years also relevant? Things like the bombing of the King David Hotel (by Zionist militias) and the Deir Yassin Massacre (same militias again), precede intervention by neighboring Arab states. Palestinians were already fleeing from murder, and they couldn't return to homes which had been demolished by the Zionist militias, and with the rubble mined to prevent people returning. Israeli historians have written extensively on this period. Benny Morris's book can be read on the Internet Archive or downloaded on VK ( https://vk.com/wall-52136985_11295 https://vk.com/wall-52136985_11295 ). I don't have an electronic source for Ilan Pappe's book, but here is an article he wrote which seems like an abridged version: ( https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/jps/vol36-141/vol36-141_b.pdf https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/jps/vol36-141/vol36-141... ). Pappe's article covers Plan Dalet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet

throwaway920333 2y ago

Israel never left Gaza. They surrounded it. They controlled the entire land border and didn't let ships sail or planes take off from Gaza. It's as if, after a prison riot, all of the guards just said fuck 'em and decamped to a perimeter around the prison with machine guns with orders to shoot to kill. Gaza is way too small and densely populated to be remotely self-sufficient. Now, just to short-circuit the reply chain, you're going to say that Hamas would have just used the borders to move in weapons. Sure, that's true. In fact, they dug a bunch of tunnels under the Israeli controlled border crossings and smuggled in a bunch of weapons. Normal stuff like food and medicine though were constantly blocked or delayed. By the way, I don't know how to solve this problem well at this point. Both sides have done enough evil shit to each other that they will want to kill each other for generations. Israel though, has never withdrawn from Gaza, and Israel has never agreed to abide by the terms of UN Resolution 242 that obligates them to withdraw from the 1967 occupied territories. What I expect to happen based on the ground reality and statements from members of the Israeli government is that the Palestinians in Gaza will either die or have their lives be made so intolerable that they leave, and then Israel will annex the land, just as they have in Jerusalem and many areas of the West Bank.

weatherlite 2y ago
Israel did withdraw from Lebanon though, this wasn't effective at all at promoting peace as we're now seeing, and same thing has happened in Gaza; Israel did uproot all the settlers from Gaza and there was no single Israeli soldier left in Gaza - you can say the Gaza withdrawal was incomplete but saying it never happened at all is incorrect. Unfortunately Israelis only learned that withdrawals from enemies who have sworn to destroy you only make things worse for them.
invalidname 2y ago
[flagged]
- disgruntledphd2 2y ago
  > As long as Hamas exists in a functioning form there can be no peace. I think the big problem with this approach is that actions taken now, which lead to deaths, lead to the friends & family of said people becoming more radicalised and thus to more terror attacks/wars in the future. I read recently in the FT that 60% of current Hamas fighters have lost family to previous conflicts, suggesting that this isn't going to end. And more generally, it's basically impossible for conventional armies to defeat guerilla fighters who have the support of the population (c.f. Irish/English conflicts, Iraq, Afghanisation (multiple times) etc). Like, fundamentally the only way this can end is through either extermination or negotiation. Given the relative power imbalances, it'll be extermination of the Palestinians, which would be terrible (and incredibly depressing given that a lot of Israeli citizens are descended from survivors of the Holocausts and the various pogroms in European history).
  - invalidname 2y ago
    I used to be of that mindset and no longer am. Hamas killed more people in a single day than the IRA killed in its entire existence. The Irish conflict which is more similar to the conflict Israel has in the west bank, is mostly a territorial conflict. If it were true that violence breeds violence then Jews would have blown up post war Germany with suicide vests. It was still filled with Nazis and their collaborators. Hamas is a different story, there's no amount of negotiations or compromise that will placate a fanatic. They will probably keep doing these things forever just like Isis didn't fully go away. But once the leadership got cut down Isis found it much harder to pull off the same level of terror. I agree that this needs to be a dual motion. Young frustrated people are kindle for these organizations and this won't work without a peace process that would give hope to the people. That's why I don't have any faith in the current Israeli government. I hope it can be replaced so there would be a parallel process that would help rebuild and pave a way for peace again.

aguaviva 2y ago

Israel offered a Palestinians a country which included east Jerusalem twice based on US pressure. On which occasions?

invalidname 2y ago
There were two separate offers made by Barak to Arafat in 2000 and by Olmert to Abu Mazen in 2008.
- dunekid 2y ago
  So kind of them to offer freedom, and sovereignty, both taken by themselves. What a moral high ground they have! Did they offer reparations too, for the ethnic cleansing in Jaffa, and Haifa, and numerous other villages and cities? I am sure they would even respawn the murdered Palestinian children.
  - invalidname 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - CapricornNoble 2y ago
      > Most of the Palestinians who fled in 1948 did so because of Arab armies who urged them to move so they can kill the Jews more easily. That backfired. Those who stayed are Israeli citizens and always have been. Those who fled couldn't come back because the borders were sealed due to a war their leaders chose to start. You mention 1948....but what happened in 1946, and 1947? Aren't those years also relevant? Things like the bombing of the King David Hotel (by Zionist militias) and the Deir Yassin Massacre (same militias again), precede intervention by neighboring Arab states. Palestinians were already fleeing from murder, and they couldn't return to homes which had been demolished by the Zionist militias, and with the rubble mined to prevent people returning. Israeli historians have written extensively on this period. Benny Morris's book can be read on the Internet Archive or downloaded on VK ( https://vk.com/wall-52136985_11295 https://vk.com/wall-52136985_11295 ). I don't have an electronic source for Ilan Pappe's book, but here is an article he wrote which seems like an abridged version: ( https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/jps/vol36-141/vol36-141_b.pdf https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/jps/vol36-141/vol36-141... ). Pappe's article covers Plan Dalet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet