7 ms·
The Lion of St. Mark's Square in Venice Is Chinese
- nyeah 2y agoPictures of old Chinese lions: https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=63099308d1ada3ea&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS1065US1065&q=8th+century+chinese+lion&udm=2&fbs=AEQNm0AVbySjNxIXoj6bNaq7uSpw-2eW7KIQ8H4T_tEPJYsPzOi5GKsV0RKGmy84LfyUxrl-4_0AusV0IdjeUAdX2KBg7BmnGLOak5d-z-_u-BD5mN13FgBnNWDvju7R9DTlWNidOrJflM1JuVtiWYZDkHFOJzhjFWWukocdFSx3yN5TzfLggWRnI4Aa-8EhEIZUfHR_WMFwmbeNhwTWDi8XltL7qhh3uw&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiOwY6VxaeJAxV-xuYEHcnlPJkQtKgLegQIExAB&biw=1600&bih=624&dpr=1.2&safe=active&ssui=on#vhid=-RQfDpiwJDhbkM&vssid=mosaic https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=63099308d1ada3ea&rlz=1... Careful, some of them are the St Mark's Square lion. Which the metal came from China but the origin of the artwork seems unclear.
- beardyw 2y agoThe article presents a good argument that it is Chinese. I don't see why it shouldn't be.
- nyeah 2y agoMe either. I also don't see any reason why my code shouldn't work. Yet right now it doesn't.
- ChrisClark 2y agoIf you were an expert coder you might know why. If you were an expert art historian, you might know more about the statue too. Instead you just dismiss it because you don't know enough.
- nyeah 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- QuercusMax 2y ago"Lead isotope analysis of the bronze alloy provided indisputable evidence of the Chinese origin of the materials used in the statue." So we definitely know that the metal came from China. I suppose it's theoretically possible the metal could have been made in China, exported elsewhere to make into the statue, but that seems like a claim that would require a LOT of evidence to make plausible.
- bilekas 2y ago> I suppose it's theoretically possible the metal could have been made in China, exported elsewhere to make into the statue First it's not theoretical where the metal is from, it's just been established. That is all that's been proven. Second, I'm not aware of much international metals trade across the silk road circa 1290~. If that was the case.. I really would expect some documentation on it. Especially given Venice's historical diligence with recording trade. Edit : "where the metal is from"
- krisoft 2y ago> suppose it's theoretically possible the metal could have been made in China, exported elsewhere to make into the statue Or the metal was made in China, made into a statue and then reworked into a slightly different one. Happens all the time that statues get melted down and the metal is reused. > that seems like a claim that would require a LOT of evidence to make plausible That is not the claim. The claim is that we don’t know. Direct quote from comment: “the origin of the artwork seems unclear”. Saying “we know both the metal and the pattern the metal is in came from China” is what requires evidence. (Not extra ordinary evidence, but some. For example the stylistic analysis mentioned in the article could be that evidence easily.) And before someone tries to psychoanalyse my opinion about the origins of this statue: i do not have an opinion. The only thing i have strong opinions about is that the person claiming that we do know something is the one who has to provide evidence, not the person who claims we don’t know something.
- rsynnott 2y agoThat seems beyond implausible; shipping bronze half way around the world a thousand years ago would just make no sense at all. It would be _vastly_ more expensive than just sourcing it locally.
- throwaway19972 2y ago> Which the metal came from China but the origin of the artwork seems unclear. Even wildly famous western artwork often has unknown provenance, or only vaguely-known provenance. Furthermore art historians often see identifying details, stylizations, flaws, etc that laymen (like myself) don't. I'm happy to trust the reporting here as much as I'd trust anything from a field I don't know much about (what alternative is there, really?).
- nyeah 2y agoI'm happy that you're happy trusting this as much as you'd trust anything else. It doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement.
- throwaway19972 2y ago> It doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement. You don't find many of these when looking at the past, and if you do, this should be a giant, glaring red flag. I may not be a trained art historian but I do know my historiography very well.
- nyeah 2y agoIn fact neither one of us has a strong belief about where the piece was made.
- throwaway19972 2y agoI mean, I think pretty strongly it was made in china now. I certainly have more certainty about that than, say, the origins of the shroud of turin.
- bilekas 2y agoI'm not sure what you're trying to imply, even from the comments it's not clear. Are you being flippant about the metal being from China but the creation (artwork) was done in Venice ? That would be a bit strange, Venice had access to easier sources of metals than the silk road. Also why would it be a point of contention? If it came from China, cool, that's fascinating that items of this size/magnitude was transported for reasons.. Maybe a gift maybe pillaging ? But that's just speculation.
- nyeah 2y agoThe article says the metal came from China.
- toyg 2y agoThe main theory is that it actually came to Venice from the sack of Constantinople. Which would make a lot of sense: placing proof of your military power in your main square is something that people would do, and the Eastern Roman Empire probably had more regular contacts with China over the centuries.
- Apocryphon 2y agoGavin Menzies would've had a field day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Menzies#1434:_The_Year_a_Magnificent_Chinese_Fleet_Sailed_to_Italy_and_Ignited_the_Renaissance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Menzies#1434:_The_Year_a...
- WorkerBee28474 2y agoExcept for the dates: > There is no historical record of when or how the lion arrived in Venice, but it was already installed atop the column in St. Mark’s Square by the time Marco Polo returned from China in 1295.
- Apocryphon 2y agoThen he would have an excuse to come up with an even wilder theory of earlier contact
- beepbooptheory 2y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH95kw9REEU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH95kw9REEU
- crazygringo 2y agoFrom Wikipedia: The Lion sculpture has had a very long and obscure history, probably starting its existence as a funerary statue called zhènmùshòu (镇墓兽 in Simplified Chinese, literally “tomb guardian”) in medieval China, during the reign of the Tang Dynasty. ...The Lion, in its present form, is a composite of different pieces of bronze created at very different times, building upon ancient "core" components. It has undergone extensive restoration and repair work at various times. ...More recent studies, however, suggest that the statue likely comes from the regions near the lower course of the Yangtze River, in eastern China, and was probably cast sometime in the period from the 7th to the early 10th century CE, during the reign of the Tang Dynasty. The original bronze figure, taken as a whole, was likely significantly different from the Lion of today... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_of_Venice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_of_Venice
- hinkley 2y agoWould it have come over the spice roads all the way from eastern china or would it have been pirate loot sold in Mumbai and then fenced farther west?
- umeshunni 2y ago> pirate loot sold in Mumbai Hate to nitpick, but Mumbai didn't exist in those times - it was a group of islands and not a major port. Major trading ports of India at the time were Muziris, Goa, Surat etc.
- FlyingSnake 2y agoWhile Mumbai in it’s current form didn’t exist, western India had many important ports like Sopara and Chaul in the same region.
- 082349872349872 2y agobeing fenced would explain why it's been through a chop shop (we call them "chop shops" in english because they used to file off the chops and serial #s the eastern chinese oems engraved on their statuary)
- empath75 2y agoKeep in mind that this statue was broken and reassembled several times so it probably doesn't look very much like the original Chinese version any more. In particular, the wings aren't original.
- Leary 2y ago"Further proof arrives through the holes in the sculpture’s head, which researchers believe would have once held horns, and ears which have been rounded off. The sculpture, which is known to have arrived in parts and reassembled, was essentially modified to look more lion-like." https://news.artnet.com/art-world/bronze-venice-lion-from-china-2537486 https://news.artnet.com/art-world/bronze-venice-lion-from-ch...
- Neonlicht 2y agoInteresting I wonder if the Chinese at the time knew what a lion was?
- jakub_g 2y ago> Lead isotope analysis of the bronze alloy provided indisputable evidence of the Chinese origin of the materials used in the statue. Is there some more detailed source explaining how this conclusion was reached? What's distinct about Chinese lead / how this kind of evaluations are done?
- ceejayoz 2y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotope_analysis_in_archaeology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotope_analysis_in_archaeolog... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_lead https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_lead
- wizzwizz4 2y agoThose links do not answer the question, separately or combined.
- ceejayoz 2y agoThey absolutely do answer the question.
- wizzwizz4 2y agoI should not have posted a comment that simply contradicted you. My bad. The first mentions lead once. The second does not mention any region of present-day China, as far as I can tell. I can't see the information there.
- ceejayoz 2y agoDifferent sources have different isotope proportions and amounts, permitting fingerprinting of region and sometimes specific mines. The first link explains how we use isotopes in this fashion. The second explains that lead has some useful ones.
- stelliosk 2y agoThe lion may be Chinese but the four horses in St Mark's Basilica are Greek looted from Constantinople during the fourth crusade (1204). Perhaps the lion was also looted and brought to Constantinople originally which would fit with pre Marco Polo's travels. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horses_of_Saint_Mark https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horses_of_Saint_Mark
- sbdhzjd 2y agoLooting a collapsing empire just across the Mediterranean is easy. Looting an empire halls way across the world is a tad harder.
- rsynnott 2y agoI think their theory is that the lion was brought to Constantinople by legitimate means, then looted _from_ there by Venice.
- ithkuil 2y agoIt's a common misconception that the crusades were a crime of white christians versus non-white non-christians. In reality crusades were just as well a crime against other white christians as against non-white christians, white non-christians, non-white non-christians, an excuse would be found for any of these targets
- sbdhzjd 2y agoAll true. But they were also an anti-colonial struggle to liberate occupied native christians from the imperialist ambitions from the Arabian peninsula.
- ithkuil 2y agoOh yes that was surely a motivator for some but also an excuse for others. The political landscape of that time was truly complicated and chaotic in a way that is hard to truly capture in the image we have of that time period brought through general education, mostly because of lack of time to explain it all properly
- tedk-42 2y agoAs an Asian person having grown up with a bit of South Chinese culture, it does appear a bit like a Chinese lion statue, but the wings really throw it off for me.
- paganel 2y agoCould be that the wings are a later addition, like they might have been added in the 1100s-1200s in Venice or those whereabouts.
- UberFly 2y agoWent looking for more info. Some good pics of where this is in Venice: https://www.guidedtoursinvenice.com/en/blog/a-guided-tour-in-venice-the-two-columns-in-st-mark-s-square/206 https://www.guidedtoursinvenice.com/en/blog/a-guided-tour-in...
- mr_toad 2y ago> There is no historical record of when or how the lion arrived in Venice, but it was already installed atop the column in St. Mark’s Square by the time Marco Polo returned from China in 1295. Venice had trade agreements with the Mongol empire for decades prior to that. It’s not hard to imagine that the Mongols took it from China and traded it to Venetian merchants.
- goodcanadian 2y agoMongols ruled China around that time.
- walrus01 2y agoTo me the face and mane of the lion resemble artwork/designs I've seen from historical Iranian-adjacent/Persian empire related sites all along the historical maximum extent of the Farsi speaking world, much of which overlaps with the historical land based trade routes to/from western China.
- __bax 2y agoand Mona Lisa is italian
- rsynnott 2y ago> Lions were initially introduced to the Han court by emissaries from Persia I wonder when "showing up with a weird animal" went out, as a form of diplomacy. It definitely seems to have been A Thing for a while. I mean, I suppose there's pandas.
- ttepasse 2y agoQueen Elizabeth II still got horses as a present. For those ancient animal gift exchanges I always wonder about the practicality. Travelling overland and over the Himalayas with lions does not seem like the best thing to do. Also: Back in 801/802 Holy Roman Emperor Charlemagne send an emissary - Isaac, the jew - to the Caliph in Baghdad, Harun Al-Rashid. Yes, that one. For the return journey the caliph gave a present, an elephant called Abul Abbas. And according to the historical chronicles Isaac really travelled with Abul Abbas from Badghad to todays Tunesia, crossed the Mediterranean on a ship and travelled to the emperor's court in Aachen, in western Germany. Charlemagne used the elephant in his campaign against the saxons. Abul Abbas seems to have survived until 810, when he died in todays northwestern Germany. I do love the origin of the term white elephant: > Because the animals were considered sacred and laws protected them from labor, receiving a gift of a white elephant from a monarch was simultaneously a blessing and a curse. It was a blessing because the animal was sacred and a sign of the monarch's favour, and a curse because the recipient now had an animal that was expensive to maintain, could not be given away, and could not be put to much practical use.
- permo-w 2y agoChina still loans out pandas for diplomatic purposes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panda_diplomacy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panda_diplomacy
- rsynnott 2y ago> For those ancient animal gift exchanges I always wonder about the practicality. Travelling overland and over the Himalayas with lions does not seem like the best thing to do. Presumably that was part of the point; it's a good gift because it's difficult and expensive. > Also: Back in 801/802 Holy Roman Emperor Charlemagne send an emissary - Isaac, the jew - to the Caliph in Baghdad, Harun Al-Rashid. Yes, that one. For the return journey the caliph gave a present, an elephant called Abul Abbas. That just seems rude. It's one thing to _bring_ an elephant as a gift; quite another to make the recipient responsible for getting the damn thing home. From wikipedia: > It seems that in 831, Harun al-Rashid's son al-Ma'mun also sent an embassy to Louis the Pious. No word on whether Louis sent some sort of inconvenient animal back, as revenge.
- metalman 2y agoI have toyed with a slightly absurd but factualy correct history of the ancient world, told from the point of view of roofers. One of the main objectives of many, many, many conquests was to steal the lead roofing that was used to cover and seal/water proof the roofs of countless civic and religious and religious buildings,another main target were.....are.... the collums used to support said roofs, or lions or dragons,horses,whatever....
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- hammock 2y ago“Greek fire(1) can’t melt Corinthian columns” (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire
- s1artibartfast 2y agoThe ancestry of greek and roman columns are fascinating. People tend to think of the white marble ones, but many of the temples were adorned with beautiful colored marble columns. These were sourced from throughout the empire and conquests. A good book or guide can outline much of greek, roman, and islamic history using columns alone.
- metalman 2y agothe aqueducts and sisterns ander various currently habitated ancient cities are sometimes supported by forests of even more ancient columns and what we see today in areas where marble was the building material of choice is the stuff that escaped the lime kilns,where mountains of ancient statuary and architectural marble, was burnt to make lime, to put on the fields of those living in the abandoned cities littering the ancient world and the fate of bronze statuary and architectural elements, was of course the same as the lead roofing, as a target for plunder and to be recast and rededicated to a new god
- jsrcout 2y agoWhat a fantastic idea. You should absolutely write this.
- waldothedog 2y agoI see some speculation around the addition of the wings but does anyone know when the seagull was added to the head?
- GTP 2y agoThe seagull added itself to the sculpture in modern times, not long before the picture was taken :D
- yread 2y agoThere is also a (bit wild) theory that St. Mark's relics in Venice are actually remains of Alexander the Great. The idea is that he was buried in Alexandria in Egypt and when the Christians started looting and pillaging someone swapped them for St.Mark's remains as those would be protected from them
- stonethrowaway 2y agoCan we get Graham Hancock to weigh in on this theory?
- simonebrunozzi 2y agoI was at St.Mark's Basilica just a few days ago (I live in Venice). An informed archeologist pointed to a specific stone decoration on the north facade, telling me that it was depicting Alexander the Great, and this was confirmed only by very recent studies in Alexandria (where she was going to go back the following week).
- rbanffy 2y agoReading this on a phone that was mostly made in China brings some interesting insight to all of this. At least we paid for the phone.
- ngcc_hk 2y ago“The lion’s Chinese origins highlight the deep cultural and economic exchanges between East and West.“ Exchange is a strange word for mostly looting …
- noirchen 2y agoI would not jump to the conclusion solely based on isotope signatures. A decade or so ago, a prominent Chinese professor Weidong Sun specialized in geochemistry analyzed the ancient bronze artifacts dated back to the Shang dynasty and found isotope signatures pointing to a Mediterranean origin, and he had to answer that. Well there can be several explanations, for example, the Shang people traded with central Asian tribes and got the ores and perhaps the bronze smelting tech too. But Sun, based on some ancient documents on some mythical long travel of the ancestors of the Shang people, concluded that the only reasonable explanation is that the Shang people are offsprings of those tribes, who are offsprings of the Sumerian people.