5 ms·

Fun fact, you can actually detect semiconductor devices even if they are powered off and hence emit no radiation unless the design took specific precautions. Th

Fun fact, you can actually detect semiconductor devices even if they are powered off and hence emit no radiation unless the design took specific precautions. This works by illuminating a region with high frequency electromagnetic radiation and then listening for the effects that PN junctions have on the reflected radiation due to their nonlinearity. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_junction_detector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_junction_detector

amelius 2y ago
> Thousands of diodes were mixed by the Soviets into the building's structural concrete, making detection and removal of the true listening devices by its American occupants nearly impossible. Wow ...
- mxuribe 2y ago
  That's called playing the long game, and playing it quite cleverly!
  - daveguy 2y ago
    Not really. It makes it clear from the first attempted sweep they altered construction -- the opposite of a long game.
    - krisoft 2y ago
      That depends on what the game is. For example if they wanted the embassy to stay in their old already compromised premises they achieved that. (for about twenty years at least.) If they wanted the USA to spend a lot of money they also achieved that.
      - emmelaich 2y ago
        They knew about the devices in 1985, a few years after construction started in 1979 and construction didn't finish till 2000. They probably knew earlier than 1985. So it probably wasn't a big deal and would've cost the SU a lot and they were less able to afford it.
        krisoft 2y ago
        > They knew about the devices in 1985, a few years after construction started in 1979 and construction didn't finish till 2000. That happened due to the bugs found. This is the point I'm making. If your goal was to keep them where they were already are (Mokhovaya House) then the bag full of diodes mixed into the concrete did that perfectly for like 15ish years. > They probably knew earlier than 1985. Doesn't change that argument. > So it probably wasn't a big deal and would've cost the SU a lot and they were less able to afford it. We are talking about a few bags of diodes vs rebuilding three stories of the building with imported workers. This was a very cost efficient attack.
- hoistbypetard 2y ago
  Yeah! It also makes me suspect that the device would not be super-useful in most environments today because our homes and offices have false positives littered all over the place. Such a countermeasure would be unnecessary now.
  - diggan 2y ago
    > useful in most environments today because our homes and offices have false positives littered all over the place Like the structural elements in your house/apartments have something similar to diodes in them, or what are you referring to?
    - hoistbypetard 2y ago
      I think a lived-in place has enough stuff in and near the walls to make this kind of scan less than useful. We have things hanging on the walls that'd distort it. Maybe an empty one would be OK now, but I think the ecobees all over the place would even distort it for those.
    - mannykannot 2y ago
      I had a vague recollection that rectifiers for battery chargers were once made out of stacked layers of oxidized copper disks, and then, in the article danbruc linked to, I saw this: Note that other semi-conducting materials, such as a rusty nail or an oxidised piece of metal, also generate harmonic frequencies and may therefore cause an NLJD to generate a false positive. https://www.cryptomuseum.com/df/tscm.htm#nljd https://www.cryptomuseum.com/df/tscm.htm#nljd It turns out that the rectifiers in question were copper - cuprous oxide - lead sandwiches: https://hackaday.com/2022/04/20/copper-rectifying-ac-a-century-ago/ https://hackaday.com/2022/04/20/copper-rectifying-ac-a-centu...
  - gorjusborg 2y ago
    > our homes and offices have false positives littered all over the place Sure, but location matters. Searching weird (for electronics to be), but line-of-sight places (like a bookcase) you might still have a good signal to noise ratio.
- alwa 2y ago
  I wonder if it would be feasible, with modern techniques and sufficient motivation, to map where the “background” diodes ended up setting in the concrete; then to measure newer sweeps against that baseline.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  Several days ago, a long interview with the former Czech ambassador to Moscow, Vítězslav Pivoňka, appeared in Czech newspapers. Unfortunately it is mostly paywalled. [0] As you could expect, bugs everywhere, but some were used for intimidation. E.g. he says, on a weekend morning, we were still in bed with my wife, when a cuckoo started cuckooing out of a wall. Yeah, it was a bug, and it was meant to emit sound and make you more nervous: "we know about everything that happens in your bed". He said that the Russians never cross the red line of actually physically manhandling diplomats, but as far as bugs and psychological pressure go, there is nothing off-limits. [0] https://denikn.cz/1549047/deptali-ho-kukanim-a-ponizovali-haskem-co-zazil-cesky-velvyslanec-v-rusku/ https://denikn.cz/1549047/deptali-ho-kukanim-a-ponizovali-ha...
danbruc 2y ago
Here [1] are some pictures and additional details on NLJDs. You can get your own, for example the Orion 2.4 [2] for USD 15.2k (free shipping) [3]. [1] https://www.cryptomuseum.com/df/tscm.htm#nljd https://www.cryptomuseum.com/df/tscm.htm#nljd [2] https://reiusa.net/nljd/ https://reiusa.net/nljd/ [3] https://spyassociates.com/orion-2-4-non-linear-junction-detector/ https://spyassociates.com/orion-2-4-non-linear-junction-dete...
- stavros 2y ago
  Oh good, I really wasn't prepared to pay the $7 for shipping that.
AlanYx 2y ago
Are nonlinear junction detectors still state-of-the-art for detecting hidden devices when powered off? Does anyone know if alternatives like electronic noses (to detect chemical signatures associated with IC packaging) and magnetic anomaly detection increasingly used for this?
7bit 2y ago
[flagged]

amelius 2y ago

> Thousands of diodes were mixed by the Soviets into the building's structural concrete, making detection and removal of the true listening devices by its American occupants nearly impossible. Wow ...

mxuribe 2y ago
That's called playing the long game, and playing it quite cleverly!
- daveguy 2y ago
  Not really. It makes it clear from the first attempted sweep they altered construction -- the opposite of a long game.
  - krisoft 2y ago
    That depends on what the game is. For example if they wanted the embassy to stay in their old already compromised premises they achieved that. (for about twenty years at least.) If they wanted the USA to spend a lot of money they also achieved that.
    - emmelaich 2y ago
      They knew about the devices in 1985, a few years after construction started in 1979 and construction didn't finish till 2000. They probably knew earlier than 1985. So it probably wasn't a big deal and would've cost the SU a lot and they were less able to afford it.
      - krisoft 2y ago
        > They knew about the devices in 1985, a few years after construction started in 1979 and construction didn't finish till 2000. That happened due to the bugs found. This is the point I'm making. If your goal was to keep them where they were already are (Mokhovaya House) then the bag full of diodes mixed into the concrete did that perfectly for like 15ish years. > They probably knew earlier than 1985. Doesn't change that argument. > So it probably wasn't a big deal and would've cost the SU a lot and they were less able to afford it. We are talking about a few bags of diodes vs rebuilding three stories of the building with imported workers. This was a very cost efficient attack.
hoistbypetard 2y ago
Yeah! It also makes me suspect that the device would not be super-useful in most environments today because our homes and offices have false positives littered all over the place. Such a countermeasure would be unnecessary now.
- diggan 2y ago
  > useful in most environments today because our homes and offices have false positives littered all over the place Like the structural elements in your house/apartments have something similar to diodes in them, or what are you referring to?
  - hoistbypetard 2y ago
    I think a lived-in place has enough stuff in and near the walls to make this kind of scan less than useful. We have things hanging on the walls that'd distort it. Maybe an empty one would be OK now, but I think the ecobees all over the place would even distort it for those.
  - mannykannot 2y ago
    I had a vague recollection that rectifiers for battery chargers were once made out of stacked layers of oxidized copper disks, and then, in the article danbruc linked to, I saw this: Note that other semi-conducting materials, such as a rusty nail or an oxidised piece of metal, also generate harmonic frequencies and may therefore cause an NLJD to generate a false positive. https://www.cryptomuseum.com/df/tscm.htm#nljd https://www.cryptomuseum.com/df/tscm.htm#nljd It turns out that the rectifiers in question were copper - cuprous oxide - lead sandwiches: https://hackaday.com/2022/04/20/copper-rectifying-ac-a-century-ago/ https://hackaday.com/2022/04/20/copper-rectifying-ac-a-centu...
- gorjusborg 2y ago
  > our homes and offices have false positives littered all over the place Sure, but location matters. Searching weird (for electronics to be), but line-of-sight places (like a bookcase) you might still have a good signal to noise ratio.
alwa 2y ago
I wonder if it would be feasible, with modern techniques and sufficient motivation, to map where the “background” diodes ended up setting in the concrete; then to measure newer sweeps against that baseline.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
inglor_cz 2y ago
Several days ago, a long interview with the former Czech ambassador to Moscow, Vítězslav Pivoňka, appeared in Czech newspapers. Unfortunately it is mostly paywalled. [0] As you could expect, bugs everywhere, but some were used for intimidation. E.g. he says, on a weekend morning, we were still in bed with my wife, when a cuckoo started cuckooing out of a wall. Yeah, it was a bug, and it was meant to emit sound and make you more nervous: "we know about everything that happens in your bed". He said that the Russians never cross the red line of actually physically manhandling diplomats, but as far as bugs and psychological pressure go, there is nothing off-limits. [0] https://denikn.cz/1549047/deptali-ho-kukanim-a-ponizovali-haskem-co-zazil-cesky-velvyslanec-v-rusku/ https://denikn.cz/1549047/deptali-ho-kukanim-a-ponizovali-ha...

danbruc 2y ago

Here [1] are some pictures and additional details on NLJDs. You can get your own, for example the Orion 2.4 [2] for USD 15.2k (free shipping) [3]. [1] https://www.cryptomuseum.com/df/tscm.htm#nljd https://www.cryptomuseum.com/df/tscm.htm#nljd [2] https://reiusa.net/nljd/ https://reiusa.net/nljd/ [3] https://spyassociates.com/orion-2-4-non-linear-junction-detector/ https://spyassociates.com/orion-2-4-non-linear-junction-dete...

stavros 2y ago
Oh good, I really wasn't prepared to pay the $7 for shipping that.

AlanYx 2y ago

Are nonlinear junction detectors still state-of-the-art for detecting hidden devices when powered off? Does anyone know if alternatives like electronic noses (to detect chemical signatures associated with IC packaging) and magnetic anomaly detection increasingly used for this?

7bit 2y ago

[flagged]