4 ms·

> The General Order we approved also forbade the use of Flock cameras for non-violent crimes. What's the point of a surveillance system if you are not going to

by Onavo 2y ago

> The General Order we approved also forbade the use of Flock cameras for non-violent crimes. What's the point of a surveillance system if you are not going to use it to solve property crimes? The biggest issues with liveability in a lot of "nice" US cities like SF are property crime and law enforcement choosing to go after "easy" white collar crime like traffic and parking violations instead of the blue collar crimes that affect safety and property.

dghlsakjg 2y ago
Traffic enforcement is down 95% in SF over the past decade https://sfstandard.com/2024/04/08/sfpd-traffic-enforcement-cost/ https://sfstandard.com/2024/04/08/sfpd-traffic-enforcement-c... That isn't limited to SF either: https://www.npr.org/2023/04/06/1167980495/americas-roads-are-more-dangerous-as-police-pull-over-fewer-drivers https://www.npr.org/2023/04/06/1167980495/americas-roads-are...
- blendo 2y ago
  “The city already has more than a dozen red light cameras that automatically ticket motorists who run the red. Since 2019, those cameras have been used to issue over 56,000 citations, according to Sernoffsky. That figure, which isn’t included in SFPD’s data on traffic citations and may help explain why citation revenue hasn’t dropped as dramatically as the moving violation totals would seem to predict, will continue to grow as the city installs more cameras.” SF is also planning to install dozens of speed enforcement cameras.
  - consteval 2y ago
    As they should. It's trivial to install these and is safer across the board for everyone, cops included. It's cheaper too. Not to mention without cops pre-occupied with simple traffic violations, they can commit to more elaborate operations. It's easy to catch someone speeding, it's a lot harder to crack down on, say, cat thefts.
    - tptacek 2y ago
      A fun thing I learned only this year: in Illinois, you need a population exceeding 1,000,000 residents to install traffic enforcement cameras (the kind that automatically issue tickets). If we could roll out red light cameras villagewide, I'd sign on.
      - qingcharles 2y ago
        Yeah, there's a surprising number of laws in Illinois that have that >1m barrier to make them only apply to Chicago/Cook County. I remember when the bodycams were coming in, Chicago fell under one of those >1m exemptions which I think gave them more time to implement?
    - MisterTea 2y ago
      > It's trivial to install these and is safer across the board for everyone, cops included. I dont know about that. My block in NYC in a school zone had a lot of people speeding along so the city installed a speed camera. It didn't seem to do much because people instantly learned it was there, slowed down, then gas it hard the next block. And that is the story with every speed camera: people learn where they are, do the brake pedal dance, then gas it. I honestly believe they do close to nothing except make the contractors wealthy. As for the camera on my block: the city got smart and took it down less than two years after it went up. In its place they installed all-way stop signs on two consecutive corners. A low tech solution involving a few sheet metal signs bolted to a metal pole. They work better but there are still jackasses who gas it after the second sign. Jerks going to be jerks.
tptacek 2y ago
Bunch of things. * The privacy/safety tradeoff is different between the two kinds of crimes. There's a distinction between computers passively collecting data and humans actively investigating (and stopping) cars. * Violent crimes are the local enforcement priority, and if you give police tools to clear non-priority crimes, you are changing their incentive structure. * The link between the car and the crime is especially tenuous in routine property crime; it's just as likely we'd be stopping people's mothers and grandparents as that we'd be stopping actual criminal suspects. That's obviously not true with a carjacking. * Being specific about the crimes we want to apply Flock to makes it easier for us to track (and, much more importantly, talk about) whether the cameras are successful. It's a real mixed bag right now! Having said all that, the pro-camera contingent certainly does want Flock cameras used to catch package thieves and shoplifters. But they were up against anti-camera people who wanted no cameras at all. We took the opening and set our own terms. Going after "easy" stuff like traffic and parking violations (neither of which can be enforced using Flock cameras here) is definitely not a problem we have. Our municipality is extraordinarily safe, but it's nestled into one of the less-safe areas in Chicagoland.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  We had a stolen Porsche here in Seattle about a half a year ago, the SPD broke off its chase because of restrictive state liability rules, the kids who stole the car later went to Costco to grab purses and killed a woman (the kids were refugees, one was caught, one fled back to their home country, the woman was also a foreign national). I wonder how many murders would be prevented by more aggressive policing of stolen cars, or even just goin after people with outstanding warrants. The bar for progress is incredibly low right now.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    Understand: we are policing stolen cars. I have been a broken record about stolen cars as a driver for escalating violent crime (search [kia by:tptacek]). What we're not doing is driving automatic enforcement off the Illinois stolen car hotlist, because: it doesn't work. We tried it. The false positive rate was enormous.
wkat4242 2y ago
A burglary isn't really a non violent crime imo. It's very invasive and if someone is home it can easily lead to violence. If I catch a burglar in my home I will certainly be violent to them, to pre-empt them from becoming a risk to me. I've been burgled several times and I've felt very violated. Unfortunately here in Europe the courts don't really agree with that but that's a later matter. I think it's more 'fair game' in states like Texas. I keep a huge flashlight by my bed for that reason. It's not deadly but it will be enough to submit an intruder. It could happen because I often don't bother to answer the door when I'm home and not expecting any parcels. Because most of the callers to my door are sales trash or scummy people trying to get into the communal stairwell. But anyway my point is these things are not that black and white. It's more like a scale.
- tptacek 2y ago
  Burglaries are UCR-standard violent crimes.
  - wkat4242 2y ago
    Ah that's good to know, thanks

by Onavo 2y ago

dghlsakjg 2y ago

Traffic enforcement is down 95% in SF over the past decade https://sfstandard.com/2024/04/08/sfpd-traffic-enforcement-cost/ https://sfstandard.com/2024/04/08/sfpd-traffic-enforcement-c... That isn't limited to SF either: https://www.npr.org/2023/04/06/1167980495/americas-roads-are-more-dangerous-as-police-pull-over-fewer-drivers https://www.npr.org/2023/04/06/1167980495/americas-roads-are...

blendo 2y ago
“The city already has more than a dozen red light cameras that automatically ticket motorists who run the red. Since 2019, those cameras have been used to issue over 56,000 citations, according to Sernoffsky. That figure, which isn’t included in SFPD’s data on traffic citations and may help explain why citation revenue hasn’t dropped as dramatically as the moving violation totals would seem to predict, will continue to grow as the city installs more cameras.” SF is also planning to install dozens of speed enforcement cameras.
- consteval 2y ago
  As they should. It's trivial to install these and is safer across the board for everyone, cops included. It's cheaper too. Not to mention without cops pre-occupied with simple traffic violations, they can commit to more elaborate operations. It's easy to catch someone speeding, it's a lot harder to crack down on, say, cat thefts.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    A fun thing I learned only this year: in Illinois, you need a population exceeding 1,000,000 residents to install traffic enforcement cameras (the kind that automatically issue tickets). If we could roll out red light cameras villagewide, I'd sign on.
    - qingcharles 2y ago
      Yeah, there's a surprising number of laws in Illinois that have that >1m barrier to make them only apply to Chicago/Cook County. I remember when the bodycams were coming in, Chicago fell under one of those >1m exemptions which I think gave them more time to implement?
  - MisterTea 2y ago
    > It's trivial to install these and is safer across the board for everyone, cops included. I dont know about that. My block in NYC in a school zone had a lot of people speeding along so the city installed a speed camera. It didn't seem to do much because people instantly learned it was there, slowed down, then gas it hard the next block. And that is the story with every speed camera: people learn where they are, do the brake pedal dance, then gas it. I honestly believe they do close to nothing except make the contractors wealthy. As for the camera on my block: the city got smart and took it down less than two years after it went up. In its place they installed all-way stop signs on two consecutive corners. A low tech solution involving a few sheet metal signs bolted to a metal pole. They work better but there are still jackasses who gas it after the second sign. Jerks going to be jerks.

tptacek 2y ago

Bunch of things. * The privacy/safety tradeoff is different between the two kinds of crimes. There's a distinction between computers passively collecting data and humans actively investigating (and stopping) cars. * Violent crimes are the local enforcement priority, and if you give police tools to clear non-priority crimes, you are changing their incentive structure. * The link between the car and the crime is especially tenuous in routine property crime; it's just as likely we'd be stopping people's mothers and grandparents as that we'd be stopping actual criminal suspects. That's obviously not true with a carjacking. * Being specific about the crimes we want to apply Flock to makes it easier for us to track (and, much more importantly, talk about) whether the cameras are successful. It's a real mixed bag right now! Having said all that, the pro-camera contingent certainly does want Flock cameras used to catch package thieves and shoplifters. But they were up against anti-camera people who wanted no cameras at all. We took the opening and set our own terms. Going after "easy" stuff like traffic and parking violations (neither of which can be enforced using Flock cameras here) is definitely not a problem we have. Our municipality is extraordinarily safe, but it's nestled into one of the less-safe areas in Chicagoland.

seanmcdirmid 2y ago
We had a stolen Porsche here in Seattle about a half a year ago, the SPD broke off its chase because of restrictive state liability rules, the kids who stole the car later went to Costco to grab purses and killed a woman (the kids were refugees, one was caught, one fled back to their home country, the woman was also a foreign national). I wonder how many murders would be prevented by more aggressive policing of stolen cars, or even just goin after people with outstanding warrants. The bar for progress is incredibly low right now.
- tptacek 2y ago
  Understand: we are policing stolen cars. I have been a broken record about stolen cars as a driver for escalating violent crime (search [kia by:tptacek]). What we're not doing is driving automatic enforcement off the Illinois stolen car hotlist, because: it doesn't work. We tried it. The false positive rate was enormous.

wkat4242 2y ago

A burglary isn't really a non violent crime imo. It's very invasive and if someone is home it can easily lead to violence. If I catch a burglar in my home I will certainly be violent to them, to pre-empt them from becoming a risk to me. I've been burgled several times and I've felt very violated. Unfortunately here in Europe the courts don't really agree with that but that's a later matter. I think it's more 'fair game' in states like Texas. I keep a huge flashlight by my bed for that reason. It's not deadly but it will be enough to submit an intruder. It could happen because I often don't bother to answer the door when I'm home and not expecting any parcels. Because most of the callers to my door are sales trash or scummy people trying to get into the communal stairwell. But anyway my point is these things are not that black and white. It's more like a scale.

tptacek 2y ago
Burglaries are UCR-standard violent crimes.
- wkat4242 2y ago
  Ah that's good to know, thanks