4 ms·

Hold onto your wallet, bailout is a sure thing

rbanffy 2y ago
Boeing falls in the category of "too strategic to fail". Wither a bailout or an acquisition (which would create an even bigger TSTF hazard).
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  Alternatively: nationalize it under the Defense Production Act.
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    Even the far right would call that communism.
    - morkalork 2y ago
      The far rights calls everything they don't like communism.
    - adamhp 2y ago
      Yes, we should instead offer Boeing 50+ billion tax-payer dollars like true capitalists.
      - rbanffy 2y ago
        Depending on how much money you have, the US experience varies from utopian socialism for the top brackets all the way to ruthless savage capitalism for the disenfranchised. Admitting to it is the first step towards fixing it.
        adventured 2y ago
        Then why is there such a gigantic welfare state for the poor in the US? Why do the top 50% fund nearly all of the government (97% of all taxes)? The top 25% pay around 90% of all income taxes. Why does the US have an aggressively progressive taxation system if it's so utopian for the rich? That's quite obviously not how the rich would choose to arrange things at all. The top 1% take in 26% of income and pay 44% of all income taxes. The top 1% pay the highest average tax rate of any group (26%), over double the median figure. Medicaid + SS disability + all state and local healthcare programs cost over a trillion dollars per year and are free for the poorest 1/4. The US Govt alone (not including local or state) spent $200 billion on all of its food assistance programs in 2022. These programs go toward people who contribute almost nothing in taxes.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        > Why do the top 50% fund nearly all of the government (97% of all taxes)? That's a flat out lie - that's not "all taxes", that's only one tax - Federal income. That's only about half what the IRS takes in (https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/18/who-pays-and-doesnt-pay-federal-income-taxes-in-the-us/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/18/who-pays-...), and then there's stuff like state, local, and non-IRS taxes like gasoline. > The top 25% pay around 90% of all income taxes. Guess what percentage of the wealth they hoover up. https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/dataviz/dfa/distribute/table/ https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/dataviz/dfa/distr... The top 0.1% holds 1.76T in wealth; the bottom 50% holds 0.71T. The top 10% hold more wealth than the remaining 90%.
        triceratops 2y ago
        > The top 25% pay around 90% of all income taxes As one of the top 25%, that doesn't automatically make it unfair. What is their total share of earned income? How much of the wealth do they hold? > These programs go toward people who contribute almost nothing in taxes. Because they make almost no money. If you want people to pay more income tax, you need to start paying them more.
        2y ago
  - kcmastrpc 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - Afforess 2y ago
      US military has no peer. USPS is very good, better and cheaper than UPS or FedEx. Wish antigovernment types didn’t lie and had actual complaints.
      - rbanffy 2y ago
        > US military has no peer. That is debatable. What was the last war it won? > USPS is very good, better and cheaper than UPS or FedEx. Indeed, it's a lesson on how all universal services should be managed by democratically elected governments according to clear charters that ensure universality and affordability.
        from-nibly 2y ago
        It's not affordable its subsidized.
        triceratops 2y ago
        Nope. The USPS pays its own way. The only thing it gets from the government is a monopoly on putting things in people's mailboxes.
        rbanffy 2y ago
        > The only thing it gets from the government is a monopoly on putting things in people's mailboxes. In exchange for that they have to attain some service levels others would consider unprofitable. Remember they need to be absolutely universal, however inconvenient for them.
        from-nibly 2y ago
        WTH is this then? https://thehill.com/opinion/congress-blog/3993213-the-imploding-us-postal-service-bailout/ https://thehill.com/opinion/congress-blog/3993213-the-implod...
- tialaramex 2y ago
  If the problem was "Boeing have a big hole and need to fill it with money" you can indeed "fix" that by dumping US taxes into the hole until it's full. When US mortgages blew up, that's the exact fix. Money hole, fill with tax money, solved. But that's not the problem here. Boeing is no longer able to make high quality aeroplanes. And if you dump US taxes into that hole the hole just yawns wider. Which doesn't mean the US government won't try that, but it's expensive and won't work.
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    > Which doesn't mean the US government won't try that I bet they will, and yes, it won't work.
- euroderf 2y ago
  Before it's bailed out, can we run the share value down to zero ? As a lesson for corporate USA.

Boeing falls in the category of "too strategic to fail". Wither a bailout or an acquisition (which would create an even bigger TSTF hazard).

ceejayoz 2y ago
Alternatively: nationalize it under the Defense Production Act.
- rbanffy 2y ago
  Even the far right would call that communism.
  - morkalork 2y ago
    The far rights calls everything they don't like communism.
  - adamhp 2y ago
    Yes, we should instead offer Boeing 50+ billion tax-payer dollars like true capitalists.
    - rbanffy 2y ago
      Depending on how much money you have, the US experience varies from utopian socialism for the top brackets all the way to ruthless savage capitalism for the disenfranchised. Admitting to it is the first step towards fixing it.
      - adventured 2y ago
        Then why is there such a gigantic welfare state for the poor in the US? Why do the top 50% fund nearly all of the government (97% of all taxes)? The top 25% pay around 90% of all income taxes. Why does the US have an aggressively progressive taxation system if it's so utopian for the rich? That's quite obviously not how the rich would choose to arrange things at all. The top 1% take in 26% of income and pay 44% of all income taxes. The top 1% pay the highest average tax rate of any group (26%), over double the median figure. Medicaid + SS disability + all state and local healthcare programs cost over a trillion dollars per year and are free for the poorest 1/4. The US Govt alone (not including local or state) spent $200 billion on all of its food assistance programs in 2022. These programs go toward people who contribute almost nothing in taxes.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        > Why do the top 50% fund nearly all of the government (97% of all taxes)? That's a flat out lie - that's not "all taxes", that's only one tax - Federal income. That's only about half what the IRS takes in (https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/18/who-pays-and-doesnt-pay-federal-income-taxes-in-the-us/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/18/who-pays-...), and then there's stuff like state, local, and non-IRS taxes like gasoline. > The top 25% pay around 90% of all income taxes. Guess what percentage of the wealth they hoover up. https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/dataviz/dfa/distribute/table/ https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/dataviz/dfa/distr... The top 0.1% holds 1.76T in wealth; the bottom 50% holds 0.71T. The top 10% hold more wealth than the remaining 90%.
        triceratops 2y ago
        > The top 25% pay around 90% of all income taxes As one of the top 25%, that doesn't automatically make it unfair. What is their total share of earned income? How much of the wealth do they hold? > These programs go toward people who contribute almost nothing in taxes. Because they make almost no money. If you want people to pay more income tax, you need to start paying them more.
        2y ago
- kcmastrpc 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - Afforess 2y ago
    US military has no peer. USPS is very good, better and cheaper than UPS or FedEx. Wish antigovernment types didn’t lie and had actual complaints.
    - rbanffy 2y ago
      > US military has no peer. That is debatable. What was the last war it won? > USPS is very good, better and cheaper than UPS or FedEx. Indeed, it's a lesson on how all universal services should be managed by democratically elected governments according to clear charters that ensure universality and affordability.
      - from-nibly 2y ago
        It's not affordable its subsidized.
        triceratops 2y ago
        Nope. The USPS pays its own way. The only thing it gets from the government is a monopoly on putting things in people's mailboxes.
        rbanffy 2y ago
        > The only thing it gets from the government is a monopoly on putting things in people's mailboxes. In exchange for that they have to attain some service levels others would consider unprofitable. Remember they need to be absolutely universal, however inconvenient for them.
        from-nibly 2y ago
        WTH is this then? https://thehill.com/opinion/congress-blog/3993213-the-imploding-us-postal-service-bailout/ https://thehill.com/opinion/congress-blog/3993213-the-implod...
tialaramex 2y ago
If the problem was "Boeing have a big hole and need to fill it with money" you can indeed "fix" that by dumping US taxes into the hole until it's full. When US mortgages blew up, that's the exact fix. Money hole, fill with tax money, solved. But that's not the problem here. Boeing is no longer able to make high quality aeroplanes. And if you dump US taxes into that hole the hole just yawns wider. Which doesn't mean the US government won't try that, but it's expensive and won't work.
- rbanffy 2y ago
  > Which doesn't mean the US government won't try that I bet they will, and yes, it won't work.
euroderf 2y ago
Before it's bailed out, can we run the share value down to zero ? As a lesson for corporate USA.