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I feel crazy sometimes, because I'm the exact opposite. WFH has been a disaster for me. I just joined a team with a hybrid schedule (3 days in the office). I'm

I feel crazy sometimes, because I'm the exact opposite. WFH has been a disaster for me. I just joined a team with a hybrid schedule (3 days in the office). I'm there every day, but it's pretty dead on the other 2 days. If they close the office and go remote-only I will quit on the spot.

threesevenths 2y ago
Can you explain what has not gone well for you? How has it gone for the rest of the team?
- xxxtemp 2y ago
  To me personally, working remote makes me feel like I'm working completely alone. For me, it's hard to feel like anyone cares what I'm doing, which has made it hard to make myself put in effort. That's a recipe for a downward spiral, which is exactly what my work has been since the pandemic. I'm not saying the office is some perfect, joyous or highly social place or anything. I just think for me, it makes a big difference to have a place (different from my house) where people come together to work on common goals, and occasionally interact face-to-face while doing it.
  - fotedjj 2y ago
    None of those things change by physically being somewhere else. Nobody cares what you’re doing because they’re sitting vaguely near you. Those rose colored glasses are goddamn dark, my friend.
    - xxxtemp 2y ago
      I find it so hard to understand this type of militancy. In what other situation is it normal to respond to the statement "I have a preference for X" with "no you don't / you have issues / take responsibility for yourself"? I prefer working with others around and I'd like to work with others who feel the same way. That isn't a personal attack on you or anyone else :)
  - neilv 2y ago
    Thanks for the explanation. Can you imagine feeling fine with more frequent WFH yourself, if something about the culture changed? For example, could you otherwise get the vibe that people were engaged and wanted to be working together, even when it was on intermittent chat and videoconf? (And if there were occasional in-person meetups, if only for more personalizing or focusing?)
  - codr7 2y ago
    That's awesome, I'm glad you have the option to work in a way that fits into your life.
    - xxxtemp 2y ago
      Maybe I’m not stating it clearly: I want to work on a team that’s in the office full time, which I don’t currently have. I’d take a pay cut to get it! If you know of anyone doing this, please let me know. Not hybrid. 5 days in office, for everyone.
      - codr7 2y ago
        I know of one company, Axis Communications, one of the reasons I'm not working there anymore. But there's a fair amount of forcing involved. Me thinks you're not going to find many companies filled with people who enjoy living in the office.
codr7 2y ago
Having the option is the point, people are different.
- xxxtemp 2y ago
  I get that point of view, but for me, being alone in an empty office isn't much better than being alone at home. I'm not trying to force people to be in the office, I just want to find a team where people WANT to be there. It seems very hard to find, but it's also hard to believe I'm the only one in the world who wants to be part of something like that.
  - codr7 2y ago
    What has worked well is agreeing on a few days where people will focus their office time, no forcing involved. Make a thing out of it, buy lunch or whatever. The only thing that changed is the power balance. It's still perfectly possible to get skilled workers into the office, they just have to want it.
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    There was a point in my life where I craved working in the office also and seeing people who also wanted to be there. And now I can't imagine going back to one. I miss nice offices though. Before the whole let's stack people side by side on desks, rather than give them some nicer spaces with lots of room for deep thought. When I was working for HARC, we had a nice former industrial space near UCLA. I totally could go for that, but when the only way to get something semi-nice and private is to work at home, well, that is going to bias people.
    - codr7 2y ago
      This touches on the core of the problem. The only thing that changed is you can no longer force people to the same degree. One alternative would be to design offices that people like to work in.
      - bryanlarsen 2y ago
tensor 2y ago
Hacker news is a pretty strong echo chamber for the work from home crowd. When covid hit there were many people at my company who really struggled with working from home. The reasons ranged from having kids or family interrupting them, being stuck in small condos, some of the new to the country employees relied on office time to get to know coworkers and make friends, others just really disliked working alone or wanted physical separation of work and home life. Often the people here on HN try to make it out that anyone who appreciates or wants to work in an office is evil or stupid or the like, but honestly probably half of people actually want a few days in the office. Comments here are not actually representative of the whole industry.
- apwell23 2y ago
  oh yea because " I get to spend more time with my kids" and " I am too lonely to wfh" are equivalent .
  - snapcaster 2y ago
    They are. They're arbitrary wants/desires that have nothing to do with the job
    - apwell23 2y ago
      except you can work on your loneliness and try to have social interactions outside work. I guess you can say " you can try not to have kids so you can work from an office" . I have no answer to that.
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  Covid was different because school-age kids were home too, which made a larger portion of situations untenable.
- Spivak 2y ago
  This is a gross mischaracterization of the stance. I want everyone to have an office to go to anytime they want— always, sometimes, never. If you want to make me go to the office we'll have words. We have forced-office and office-available, no one is arguing for forced-remote.
apwell23 2y ago
[flagged]
- fotedjj 2y ago
  You’re being downvoted, but exactly. The persons responses basically amount to: I can’t manage my time and need others to validate what I’m doing. Take some personal responsibility.
  - xxxtemp 2y ago
    I can manage my time just fine! The problem is that I find it very demotivating to be working completely alone, and enjoy working with others around. It's a personal preference, no more complex than that.
    - fotedjj 2y ago
      Then go to coworking space? Jesus. Stop trying to ruin everything because you’re lonely and want to shoot the shit by the water cooler like it’s 1952
      - codr7 2y ago
        Forcing others into the office just because you want their company is definitely a bad idea. The way forward is finding ways to work together that the entire team is comfortable with. And employers thinking of employees more as humans and less as resources to be manipulated and squeezed. It will take compromises and growth, but it's far from impossible to achieve.
      - xxxtemp 2y ago
        I want my work to be in-office full-time and I’m going to keep pushing for it. Consider that from my perspective you’re the one “ruining it” for me.
        apwell23 2y ago
dumpHero2 2y ago
+1 work - life separation is a must. And not everyone can afford a home office. Also isolation is a real threat.
- codr7 2y ago
  I'm pretty sure few people are being forced to work remotely, it's an option.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  If you are working remotely, you can move somewhere that you can afford a home office..
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    Depends on your pay.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      Again if you are working remotely as a software developer, no matter whst your pay is, there is somewhere in the US you can afford an extra room for the same amount you are paying now unless you are already living in a rundown trailer in the middle of nowhere
      - johnnyanmac 2y ago
        You might be, yes. Or living with parents or a partner who pays the bills. But how come every solution to pay these days is a dismissive "just uproot your entire life and community and move to the middle of nowhere"? If you have no social life nor reliance on modern conviniences, sure. But I've been raised in that environment and can't recommend it to most - it's about as walk-unfriendly as you can get. Because there's a lot of empty land and the only benefit is you buy large swaths of it for housing (at least, "large" compared to urban environments). - you have very little business to rely on locally. I had a small grocery store, an unkempt library, some liquor stores, a church, and a single burger joint. These were all 3+ miles from my home. Doing anything else required a 40 minute drive to the nearest downtown. Especially emergencies (no local hospital). -weather in such towns is likely worse. So expect biting cold and dry environments or arid deserts. Not really places you can just walk out and take a quick jog if you're into that. If all that is worth never coming into an office just so you can have a dedicated office, then sure. Move your life. I will compliment the lack of light pollution, though. Amazing place if you're an amateur stargazer. Or simply want to see the night sky in the ways Hollywood portrays it.
closeparen 2y ago
I have a mild preference for working in an office but I'm developing a very strong preference for getting out of the Bay Area/New York/Seattle complex. And unfortunately the in-office jobs at good companies are very concentrated.
- leetharris 2y ago
  I am very biased as I am from the Austin area, but this is a big reason why I still live here. Everywhere here seems to be very hybrid friendly and the suburbs are close and very cheap in comparison to those 3 cities.
wwweston 2y ago
It's not crazy to have a personal in-office preference! I'm very much team WFH but I recognize some people have temperament or home environment that will make WFH difficult. And also that there are sometimes specific types of work and phases of projects that benefit from a lot of in-person collab. It's probably even reasonable to organize teams around similar styles, preferences, and demands of the actual work output. But it's good to recognize that a LOT of IC roles benefit strongly from greater control over their work environment and time, which can often be achieved via remote (and even a lot of managerial work that's high contact light touch direction can benefit from the tooling and organization required to support remote work). What's less good is to universalize. It rarely reflects detailed attention to organizational and individual needs and output. It's more like the fad that produced the categorically inexcusable open-plan-office. Where it happens, it's often a cover for something else, or a reflection of limited interest in good management.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
nunez 2y ago
you are not alone. i love commuting and used to travel every week for work and work from customer offices. i intentionally chose this life and absolutely loved it. covid completely upended this. work travel makes very little sense when most of your employees are hybrid. for me, wfh has been awful. it's difficult for me to attach to the mission without physically being with others striving for the same goals. very few people outside of this wild and wacky world of tech understand what i do. i don't really have avenues for vibing on work outside of 1x1 zooms, which are awful (for me). i can see how it's nice if you spend all day in front of a terminal churning code, but, for me, anything involving other people is just so much worse while remote. body language, dynamism, and humanity are super hard to capture over zoom, even with the camera on. (talking to a camera is extremely unnatural in my opinion; not at all the same.) it's also extremely easy for work to melt into your personal life, though i've found an old-school workflow that mostly solves for this (separate work phone that's off after hours, being very deliberate about where I work whilst home, etc). regardless, having to be in front of a computer in your own home when the weather's great and inviting outside feels like a mental prison of sorts. the same dynamic exists within the office, but it's _designed_ for that, which makes it different. while i understand others wishes to be remote, i very much wish i could work in an office (and/or travel every week again). ## preemptions for common retorts! - "Just make more friends!" can't hang out with friends during work hours. see also: ideate/kvetching about common work. - "Pick up hobbies!" i have hobbies. i can't do them during work hours. - "Commuting is awful!" i love commuting. - "Work at a coffee shop if you need to be around people." i actually do do this, and it's quite nice. i don't work with those people though. i'm still working by myself. - "Invest in a better home office!" my home office is super sweet. i'd downsize in a heartbeat for a proper office and intend on doing just that when the time comes.

threesevenths 2y ago

Can you explain what has not gone well for you? How has it gone for the rest of the team?

xxxtemp 2y ago
To me personally, working remote makes me feel like I'm working completely alone. For me, it's hard to feel like anyone cares what I'm doing, which has made it hard to make myself put in effort. That's a recipe for a downward spiral, which is exactly what my work has been since the pandemic. I'm not saying the office is some perfect, joyous or highly social place or anything. I just think for me, it makes a big difference to have a place (different from my house) where people come together to work on common goals, and occasionally interact face-to-face while doing it.
- fotedjj 2y ago
  None of those things change by physically being somewhere else. Nobody cares what you’re doing because they’re sitting vaguely near you. Those rose colored glasses are goddamn dark, my friend.
  - xxxtemp 2y ago
    I find it so hard to understand this type of militancy. In what other situation is it normal to respond to the statement "I have a preference for X" with "no you don't / you have issues / take responsibility for yourself"? I prefer working with others around and I'd like to work with others who feel the same way. That isn't a personal attack on you or anyone else :)
- neilv 2y ago
  Thanks for the explanation. Can you imagine feeling fine with more frequent WFH yourself, if something about the culture changed? For example, could you otherwise get the vibe that people were engaged and wanted to be working together, even when it was on intermittent chat and videoconf? (And if there were occasional in-person meetups, if only for more personalizing or focusing?)
- codr7 2y ago
  That's awesome, I'm glad you have the option to work in a way that fits into your life.
  - xxxtemp 2y ago
    Maybe I’m not stating it clearly: I want to work on a team that’s in the office full time, which I don’t currently have. I’d take a pay cut to get it! If you know of anyone doing this, please let me know. Not hybrid. 5 days in office, for everyone.
    - codr7 2y ago
      I know of one company, Axis Communications, one of the reasons I'm not working there anymore. But there's a fair amount of forcing involved. Me thinks you're not going to find many companies filled with people who enjoy living in the office.

codr7 2y ago

Having the option is the point, people are different.

xxxtemp 2y ago
I get that point of view, but for me, being alone in an empty office isn't much better than being alone at home. I'm not trying to force people to be in the office, I just want to find a team where people WANT to be there. It seems very hard to find, but it's also hard to believe I'm the only one in the world who wants to be part of something like that.
- codr7 2y ago
  What has worked well is agreeing on a few days where people will focus their office time, no forcing involved. Make a thing out of it, buy lunch or whatever. The only thing that changed is the power balance. It's still perfectly possible to get skilled workers into the office, they just have to want it.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  There was a point in my life where I craved working in the office also and seeing people who also wanted to be there. And now I can't imagine going back to one. I miss nice offices though. Before the whole let's stack people side by side on desks, rather than give them some nicer spaces with lots of room for deep thought. When I was working for HARC, we had a nice former industrial space near UCLA. I totally could go for that, but when the only way to get something semi-nice and private is to work at home, well, that is going to bias people.
  - codr7 2y ago
    This touches on the core of the problem. The only thing that changed is you can no longer force people to the same degree. One alternative would be to design offices that people like to work in.
    - bryanlarsen 2y ago

tensor 2y ago

Hacker news is a pretty strong echo chamber for the work from home crowd. When covid hit there were many people at my company who really struggled with working from home. The reasons ranged from having kids or family interrupting them, being stuck in small condos, some of the new to the country employees relied on office time to get to know coworkers and make friends, others just really disliked working alone or wanted physical separation of work and home life. Often the people here on HN try to make it out that anyone who appreciates or wants to work in an office is evil or stupid or the like, but honestly probably half of people actually want a few days in the office. Comments here are not actually representative of the whole industry.

apwell23 2y ago
oh yea because " I get to spend more time with my kids" and " I am too lonely to wfh" are equivalent .
- snapcaster 2y ago
  They are. They're arbitrary wants/desires that have nothing to do with the job
  - apwell23 2y ago
    except you can work on your loneliness and try to have social interactions outside work. I guess you can say " you can try not to have kids so you can work from an office" . I have no answer to that.
mixmastamyk 2y ago
Covid was different because school-age kids were home too, which made a larger portion of situations untenable.
Spivak 2y ago
This is a gross mischaracterization of the stance. I want everyone to have an office to go to anytime they want— always, sometimes, never. If you want to make me go to the office we'll have words. We have forced-office and office-available, no one is arguing for forced-remote.

apwell23 2y ago

[flagged]

fotedjj 2y ago
You’re being downvoted, but exactly. The persons responses basically amount to: I can’t manage my time and need others to validate what I’m doing. Take some personal responsibility.
- xxxtemp 2y ago
  I can manage my time just fine! The problem is that I find it very demotivating to be working completely alone, and enjoy working with others around. It's a personal preference, no more complex than that.
  - fotedjj 2y ago
    Then go to coworking space? Jesus. Stop trying to ruin everything because you’re lonely and want to shoot the shit by the water cooler like it’s 1952
    - codr7 2y ago
      Forcing others into the office just because you want their company is definitely a bad idea. The way forward is finding ways to work together that the entire team is comfortable with. And employers thinking of employees more as humans and less as resources to be manipulated and squeezed. It will take compromises and growth, but it's far from impossible to achieve.
    - xxxtemp 2y ago
      I want my work to be in-office full-time and I’m going to keep pushing for it. Consider that from my perspective you’re the one “ruining it” for me.
      - apwell23 2y ago

dumpHero2 2y ago

+1 work - life separation is a must. And not everyone can afford a home office. Also isolation is a real threat.

codr7 2y ago
I'm pretty sure few people are being forced to work remotely, it's an option.
scarface_74 2y ago
If you are working remotely, you can move somewhere that you can afford a home office..
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  Depends on your pay.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    Again if you are working remotely as a software developer, no matter whst your pay is, there is somewhere in the US you can afford an extra room for the same amount you are paying now unless you are already living in a rundown trailer in the middle of nowhere
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      You might be, yes. Or living with parents or a partner who pays the bills. But how come every solution to pay these days is a dismissive "just uproot your entire life and community and move to the middle of nowhere"? If you have no social life nor reliance on modern conviniences, sure. But I've been raised in that environment and can't recommend it to most - it's about as walk-unfriendly as you can get. Because there's a lot of empty land and the only benefit is you buy large swaths of it for housing (at least, "large" compared to urban environments). - you have very little business to rely on locally. I had a small grocery store, an unkempt library, some liquor stores, a church, and a single burger joint. These were all 3+ miles from my home. Doing anything else required a 40 minute drive to the nearest downtown. Especially emergencies (no local hospital). -weather in such towns is likely worse. So expect biting cold and dry environments or arid deserts. Not really places you can just walk out and take a quick jog if you're into that. If all that is worth never coming into an office just so you can have a dedicated office, then sure. Move your life. I will compliment the lack of light pollution, though. Amazing place if you're an amateur stargazer. Or simply want to see the night sky in the ways Hollywood portrays it.

closeparen 2y ago

I have a mild preference for working in an office but I'm developing a very strong preference for getting out of the Bay Area/New York/Seattle complex. And unfortunately the in-office jobs at good companies are very concentrated.

leetharris 2y ago
I am very biased as I am from the Austin area, but this is a big reason why I still live here. Everywhere here seems to be very hybrid friendly and the suburbs are close and very cheap in comparison to those 3 cities.

wwweston 2y ago

It's not crazy to have a personal in-office preference! I'm very much team WFH but I recognize some people have temperament or home environment that will make WFH difficult. And also that there are sometimes specific types of work and phases of projects that benefit from a lot of in-person collab. It's probably even reasonable to organize teams around similar styles, preferences, and demands of the actual work output. But it's good to recognize that a LOT of IC roles benefit strongly from greater control over their work environment and time, which can often be achieved via remote (and even a lot of managerial work that's high contact light touch direction can benefit from the tooling and organization required to support remote work). What's less good is to universalize. It rarely reflects detailed attention to organizational and individual needs and output. It's more like the fad that produced the categorically inexcusable open-plan-office. Where it happens, it's often a cover for something else, or a reflection of limited interest in good management.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

nunez 2y ago

you are not alone. i love commuting and used to travel every week for work and work from customer offices. i intentionally chose this life and absolutely loved it. covid completely upended this. work travel makes very little sense when most of your employees are hybrid. for me, wfh has been awful. it's difficult for me to attach to the mission without physically being with others striving for the same goals. very few people outside of this wild and wacky world of tech understand what i do. i don't really have avenues for vibing on work outside of 1x1 zooms, which are awful (for me). i can see how it's nice if you spend all day in front of a terminal churning code, but, for me, anything involving other people is just so much worse while remote. body language, dynamism, and humanity are super hard to capture over zoom, even with the camera on. (talking to a camera is extremely unnatural in my opinion; not at all the same.) it's also extremely easy for work to melt into your personal life, though i've found an old-school workflow that mostly solves for this (separate work phone that's off after hours, being very deliberate about where I work whilst home, etc). regardless, having to be in front of a computer in your own home when the weather's great and inviting outside feels like a mental prison of sorts. the same dynamic exists within the office, but it's _designed_ for that, which makes it different. while i understand others wishes to be remote, i very much wish i could work in an office (and/or travel every week again). ## preemptions for common retorts! - "Just make more friends!" can't hang out with friends during work hours. see also: ideate/kvetching about common work. - "Pick up hobbies!" i have hobbies. i can't do them during work hours. - "Commuting is awful!" i love commuting. - "Work at a coffee shop if you need to be around people." i actually do do this, and it's quite nice. i don't work with those people though. i'm still working by myself. - "Invest in a better home office!" my home office is super sweet. i'd downsize in a heartbeat for a proper office and intend on doing just that when the time comes.