10 ms·

It's interesting how mind wandering can be analysed from different perspectives: 1. In meditation the main goal is precisely to free ourselves from the monkey

by arijo 2y ago

It's interesting how mind wandering can be analysed from different perspectives: 1. In meditation the main goal is precisely to free ourselves from the monkey mind that seems to be the cause of all suffering 2. In neuroscience mind wandering is seen as the brain default mode unless we are operating within a goal driven mindset 3. This can also be seen as a kind of reinforcement learning: we train ourselves to notice when we are mind wandering - this process in itself, after some time, conditions the mind to focus on the present moment 4. From a metabolic perspective (e.g. ketogenic therapy), mind wandering can be seen as the result of blood glucose fluctuations that cause mental fogginess and impair focus In my own experience as a long time meditation practitioner, what really made the difference for me was regulating my blood glucose levels by following a ketogenic diet. The change in clarity of mind and focus were life changing to me. I write a bit on my experience in my blog: https://www.feelingbuggy.com/p/how-the-ketogenic-diet-helped-me https://www.feelingbuggy.com/p/how-the-ketogenic-diet-helped... Just my 2 cents on a fascinating subject!

hanniabu 2y ago
What is "monkey mind"?
- nickvec 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_mind
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Aeglaecia 2y ago
  more broadly , the difference between reacting and responding to a stimulus
- even_639765 2y ago
  It's called reverie. The stream of thinking that you naturally have when you're not deliberately trying to focus. Essentially, one thought leading to another which leads to another and so on, without you having to make any effort. Most people identify so much with their thinking, they aren't aware of it as a "thing"; it feels like it's something you're doing. What are you thinking about? But if you try to just pay attention, say to your breath, going in and out, after a few seconds you'll discover you slipped back into thinking, as described above, back into reverie. Continued failure, despite your increasing resolve, to stay just listening to your breath reveals this fact: you can't stop "your" thinking mind from recapturing your attention. So it seems like a monkey, that is, a thing which jumps around, from thought to thought, a separate entity from you, one which will not obey you.
- timacles 2y ago
  It is also known as karma mind in the Zen Buddhism. Obsession over things that benefit you and avoiding things that hurt you.
yamrzou 2y ago
> From a metabolic perspective (e.g. ketogenic therapy), mind wandering can be seen as the result of blood glucose fluctuations that cause mental fogginess and impair focus Could you please provide some sources for this?
- arijo 2y ago
  https://brainenergy.com https://brainenergy.com
  - fao_ 2y ago
    Gosh! Another self-help book to "cure" my ADHD and depression! /s Sarcasm aside, we already have cures for these disorders. It's absolutely insulting to struggle for decades dealing with mental health problems, for the medical industry to hold the cure (which, incidentally, is also the key to allowing you to perform a lot of self-care steps which would improve your mental health), and to then be told that — no, you won't receive the cure because you're not our "ideal patient" so, instead, maybe try and bang your head against this self-help book that "cures" the disease. Obviously, the disease will be cured if you just try hard enough! Or if you just, idk, Cope With It. The majority of self-help books exist to generate money and only end up reinforcing the point of view that if you are struggling with mental illness it must be your fault. They take the burden off the rotting, decrepit husk of capitalism and put the burden back on to you. "Oh, you have struggled every day of your life with X? Ah, but this self-help book solves X, so if it doesn't work that must be your fault and you need to struggle harder with the methods in the self-help book!"
    - arijo 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - amanaplanacanal 2y ago
        Where are the studies? His list of publications only had individual case studies, which are nice, I guess, but... Lots of people have theories. Where is the science?
detourdog 2y ago
What I think is interesting in your point number 3. is that a social framework be the reinforcement mechanism. Growing up in an isolated environment could presents one reality growing up in a strong social environment presents another reality. The coping skills in one reality my not translate to the new reality.
sva_ 2y ago
> The change in clarity of mind and focus were life changing to me. Feeling smart != being smart. I was once doing a water fast for a week and felt rather enlightened after a few days, like any problem would be easy. Upon trying to churn on some more advanced math proofs and programming stuff, it seemed to actually be harder than it would usually be. In fact I quickly decided that my time would be better spent walking around outside in the woods. Fasting isn't really the same as keto of course. But I wonder if there are actual studies proving an increase in problem solving skills during something like a ketogenic diet or similar.
- arijo 2y ago
  My ability to focus deeper and for a longer period of time increased substantially - I'm afraid my IQ is still the same ;)
- Gooblebrai 2y ago
  > Feeling smart != being smart Like many psychedelic users can attest to. The mindset of enlightenment is just another mindset that can be produced by the brain by doing the appropriate actions
  - Hugsun 2y ago
    There are is an unfortunately large proportion of them that are fooled by the emotion and believe it.
    - mewpmewp2 2y ago
      For me, I get drunk and I start to feel really smart and enlightened, however next day I usually cringe, but who knows maybe it was the drunk me that was the smart one and the cringing me is just too narrow minded and judgmental.
      - itronitron 2y ago
        It really depends on the task, some people are better at speaking a foreign language after they've had a few drinks.
__MatrixMan__ 2y ago
Do you have any thoughts about the possibility that it wasn't ketosis but instead just a lack of gluten? I've not tried either but I've heard the same result attributed to making both changes (hard to know because they tend to coincide).
- arijo 2y ago
  I think the main issue is the unhealthy up and down insulin spikes caused by modern high carbs diets.
  - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
    That feels right. And it's good news too. I think I need to make some kind of similar change and for similar reasons and I'd really not like to eat and much meat as it takes to maintain ketosis. But there are a lot of ways to be blood-sugar-aware...
    - ljf 2y ago
      Look into the 'Slow Carb' diet - in simple terms you cut out sugar/processed carbs and replace bread/pasta/potato/rice with beans and extra veg. Then one day a week you eat what you want. I personally find it far easier to follow than Keto - and while the affects aren't as extreme, when I was being strict with it, I was at my leanest and healthiest I've ever been.
      - Melatonic 2y ago
        Do we really need to group potatoes in there ? They're not processed carbs at all and have more protein than most people think
        ljf 2y ago
        They cause an insulin spike so yes - but you can bend the rules however you want. For me just doing something where I stop myself gorging on sweets/chocolate is half the battle. Anything that spikes my insulin makes me crave sweet foods.
primitivesuave 2y ago
If you feel comfortable sharing, what is the meditation technique you practice? I am a Vipassana practitioner and found your observation to be anecdotally true - the commonly stated reasoning for the prescribed diet in a Vipassana course is that it minimizes the amount of blood diverted from other organs (i.e. the brain) to aid in digestion. In any case, I found your statement "nothing to lose and could always return to my previous, though less-than-optimal, lifestyle" quite inspiring - thank you!
- arijo 2y ago
  My approach these days is to follow a meditation mantra: 1. Slow down - the moment I'm aware my mind is no longer quiet and alert because of some trigger (internal or external) 2. Stop suffering - I do a quick body scan for the associated sensations along the body, tell myself this is just a temporary mood change, it will go away the same way it made its way into my body and mind 3. Take a deep breadth - I focus on my breadth for a few seconds and relax 4. Let it go - I know I should not blindly believe any thoughts or feelings that take over my mind and try to get back to a relaxed state of mind I do this all the time not just during a few minutes of formal pratice. Its so ingrained in my way of being that some people close to me say my personality drastically changed. But there's still a long way to go.
- timacles 2y ago
  Learn zazen and zen Buddhism meditation. All other methods are inferior. Simply observer your own thoughts and do not evaluate them as good or bad. Do this until you forget who you are. Simple yet extremely difficult
  - primitivesuave 2y ago
    It is not very Buddhist to characterize other methods as inferior [1]. Perhaps the words of the Buddha himself would be the best guidance for you on this. 1. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/bl014.html https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/bl014.ht...
    - 2y ago
naasking 2y ago
> 3. This can also be seen as a kind of reinforcement learning: we train ourselves to notice when we are mind wandering - this process in itself, after some time, conditions the mind to focus on the present moment I'm not sure how generalizable this is. Young kids that are still developing seem very present in most circumstances. I almost think we settle into mind wandering as we develop more responsibilities and have to plan further ahead and think about contingencies.
- timacles 2y ago
  Not being present is an ego protection mechanism. Its classic psychology. As children get older, they develop ideas of who they are and naturally develop ways to protect their emotions. When peoples' mind wanders, they cling to things that made them feel good or "Day dream" of things that would make them feel good. They're not planning ahead or thinking about contingencies. Dealing with reality is hard, and being present means continually facing this harsh world. You can observe this with not just kids but adults in the modern world as people are more and more detached from reality and can live in some fantasy context by reinforcing with social media and internet echo chambers
  - naasking 2y ago
    Frankly, calling it classic psychology isn't saying much given the replication crisis. I think what you describe definitely happens sometimes, but to paint all mind wandering in this way seems like a stretch.
  - aaarrm 2y ago
    Any high level readings you can recommend on this? I'm not looking for a textbook, but something to give me a general overview of this and related concepts.

by arijo 2y ago

hanniabu 2y ago

What is "monkey mind"?

nickvec 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_mind
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Aeglaecia 2y ago
more broadly , the difference between reacting and responding to a stimulus
even_639765 2y ago
It's called reverie. The stream of thinking that you naturally have when you're not deliberately trying to focus. Essentially, one thought leading to another which leads to another and so on, without you having to make any effort. Most people identify so much with their thinking, they aren't aware of it as a "thing"; it feels like it's something you're doing. What are you thinking about? But if you try to just pay attention, say to your breath, going in and out, after a few seconds you'll discover you slipped back into thinking, as described above, back into reverie. Continued failure, despite your increasing resolve, to stay just listening to your breath reveals this fact: you can't stop "your" thinking mind from recapturing your attention. So it seems like a monkey, that is, a thing which jumps around, from thought to thought, a separate entity from you, one which will not obey you.
timacles 2y ago
It is also known as karma mind in the Zen Buddhism. Obsession over things that benefit you and avoiding things that hurt you.

yamrzou 2y ago

> From a metabolic perspective (e.g. ketogenic therapy), mind wandering can be seen as the result of blood glucose fluctuations that cause mental fogginess and impair focus Could you please provide some sources for this?

arijo 2y ago
https://brainenergy.com https://brainenergy.com
- fao_ 2y ago
  Gosh! Another self-help book to "cure" my ADHD and depression! /s Sarcasm aside, we already have cures for these disorders. It's absolutely insulting to struggle for decades dealing with mental health problems, for the medical industry to hold the cure (which, incidentally, is also the key to allowing you to perform a lot of self-care steps which would improve your mental health), and to then be told that — no, you won't receive the cure because you're not our "ideal patient" so, instead, maybe try and bang your head against this self-help book that "cures" the disease. Obviously, the disease will be cured if you just try hard enough! Or if you just, idk, Cope With It. The majority of self-help books exist to generate money and only end up reinforcing the point of view that if you are struggling with mental illness it must be your fault. They take the burden off the rotting, decrepit husk of capitalism and put the burden back on to you. "Oh, you have struggled every day of your life with X? Ah, but this self-help book solves X, so if it doesn't work that must be your fault and you need to struggle harder with the methods in the self-help book!"
  - arijo 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - amanaplanacanal 2y ago
      Where are the studies? His list of publications only had individual case studies, which are nice, I guess, but... Lots of people have theories. Where is the science?

detourdog 2y ago

What I think is interesting in your point number 3. is that a social framework be the reinforcement mechanism. Growing up in an isolated environment could presents one reality growing up in a strong social environment presents another reality. The coping skills in one reality my not translate to the new reality.

sva_ 2y ago

> The change in clarity of mind and focus were life changing to me. Feeling smart != being smart. I was once doing a water fast for a week and felt rather enlightened after a few days, like any problem would be easy. Upon trying to churn on some more advanced math proofs and programming stuff, it seemed to actually be harder than it would usually be. In fact I quickly decided that my time would be better spent walking around outside in the woods. Fasting isn't really the same as keto of course. But I wonder if there are actual studies proving an increase in problem solving skills during something like a ketogenic diet or similar.

arijo 2y ago
My ability to focus deeper and for a longer period of time increased substantially - I'm afraid my IQ is still the same ;)
Gooblebrai 2y ago
> Feeling smart != being smart Like many psychedelic users can attest to. The mindset of enlightenment is just another mindset that can be produced by the brain by doing the appropriate actions
- Hugsun 2y ago
  There are is an unfortunately large proportion of them that are fooled by the emotion and believe it.
  - mewpmewp2 2y ago
    For me, I get drunk and I start to feel really smart and enlightened, however next day I usually cringe, but who knows maybe it was the drunk me that was the smart one and the cringing me is just too narrow minded and judgmental.
    - itronitron 2y ago
      It really depends on the task, some people are better at speaking a foreign language after they've had a few drinks.

__MatrixMan__ 2y ago

Do you have any thoughts about the possibility that it wasn't ketosis but instead just a lack of gluten? I've not tried either but I've heard the same result attributed to making both changes (hard to know because they tend to coincide).

arijo 2y ago
I think the main issue is the unhealthy up and down insulin spikes caused by modern high carbs diets.
- __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
  That feels right. And it's good news too. I think I need to make some kind of similar change and for similar reasons and I'd really not like to eat and much meat as it takes to maintain ketosis. But there are a lot of ways to be blood-sugar-aware...
  - ljf 2y ago
    Look into the 'Slow Carb' diet - in simple terms you cut out sugar/processed carbs and replace bread/pasta/potato/rice with beans and extra veg. Then one day a week you eat what you want. I personally find it far easier to follow than Keto - and while the affects aren't as extreme, when I was being strict with it, I was at my leanest and healthiest I've ever been.
    - Melatonic 2y ago
      Do we really need to group potatoes in there ? They're not processed carbs at all and have more protein than most people think
      - ljf 2y ago
        They cause an insulin spike so yes - but you can bend the rules however you want. For me just doing something where I stop myself gorging on sweets/chocolate is half the battle. Anything that spikes my insulin makes me crave sweet foods.

primitivesuave 2y ago

If you feel comfortable sharing, what is the meditation technique you practice? I am a Vipassana practitioner and found your observation to be anecdotally true - the commonly stated reasoning for the prescribed diet in a Vipassana course is that it minimizes the amount of blood diverted from other organs (i.e. the brain) to aid in digestion. In any case, I found your statement "nothing to lose and could always return to my previous, though less-than-optimal, lifestyle" quite inspiring - thank you!

arijo 2y ago
My approach these days is to follow a meditation mantra: 1. Slow down - the moment I'm aware my mind is no longer quiet and alert because of some trigger (internal or external) 2. Stop suffering - I do a quick body scan for the associated sensations along the body, tell myself this is just a temporary mood change, it will go away the same way it made its way into my body and mind 3. Take a deep breadth - I focus on my breadth for a few seconds and relax 4. Let it go - I know I should not blindly believe any thoughts or feelings that take over my mind and try to get back to a relaxed state of mind I do this all the time not just during a few minutes of formal pratice. Its so ingrained in my way of being that some people close to me say my personality drastically changed. But there's still a long way to go.
timacles 2y ago
Learn zazen and zen Buddhism meditation. All other methods are inferior. Simply observer your own thoughts and do not evaluate them as good or bad. Do this until you forget who you are. Simple yet extremely difficult
- primitivesuave 2y ago
  It is not very Buddhist to characterize other methods as inferior [1]. Perhaps the words of the Buddha himself would be the best guidance for you on this. 1. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/bl014.html https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/bl014.ht...
  - 2y ago

naasking 2y ago

> 3. This can also be seen as a kind of reinforcement learning: we train ourselves to notice when we are mind wandering - this process in itself, after some time, conditions the mind to focus on the present moment I'm not sure how generalizable this is. Young kids that are still developing seem very present in most circumstances. I almost think we settle into mind wandering as we develop more responsibilities and have to plan further ahead and think about contingencies.

timacles 2y ago
Not being present is an ego protection mechanism. Its classic psychology. As children get older, they develop ideas of who they are and naturally develop ways to protect their emotions. When peoples' mind wanders, they cling to things that made them feel good or "Day dream" of things that would make them feel good. They're not planning ahead or thinking about contingencies. Dealing with reality is hard, and being present means continually facing this harsh world. You can observe this with not just kids but adults in the modern world as people are more and more detached from reality and can live in some fantasy context by reinforcing with social media and internet echo chambers
- naasking 2y ago
  Frankly, calling it classic psychology isn't saying much given the replication crisis. I think what you describe definitely happens sometimes, but to paint all mind wandering in this way seems like a stretch.
- aaarrm 2y ago
  Any high level readings you can recommend on this? I'm not looking for a textbook, but something to give me a general overview of this and related concepts.