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> the signaling value of college degrees as indicating knowledge I'm not sure knowledge is what a college degree signals to prospective employers. The alternat

by pdonis 2y ago

> the signaling value of college degrees as indicating knowledge I'm not sure knowledge is what a college degree signals to prospective employers. The alternative hypothesis, which AFAIK has a fair bit of support, is that it signals a willingness to do whatever it takes to fulfill a set of on paper requirements imposed by an institution, by hook or by crook.

ericjmorey 2y ago
I think you have a clearer understanding of the signalling that colleges have been providing for centuries than others who have been sold the lies that have been perpetuated by school administrators and those trying to justify their social advantages to those that didn't have similar advantages.
- sevensor 2y ago
  In a weird paradox, students who believe the lie and actually study to learn the material get more value from their education.
  - pdonis 2y ago
    > get more value If actually learning is valuable to them, independent of whether it will actually help them with prospective employers, then yes. But I don't think we can assume that all students value that.
    - sevensor 2y ago
      I’m thinking about the long term here. I don’t care about grades, I think they’re a poor signal. What I care about is whether the engineer I’m working with fifteen years and four employers later actually learned the fundamentals. Some did, some didn’t, and I can tell the difference.
      - pdonis 2y ago
        > What I care about is whether the engineer I’m working with fifteen years and four employers later actually learned the fundamentals. For professional engineers, at least, the degree is not what tells you whether they have learned the fundamentals. The license is. Even for engineers in domains where there is no licensing (such as software, for example), I would expect them to have learned the fundamentals on the job, not in college. I think most employers expect the same; they don't view the college degree as a signal that the prospective employee knows the fundamentals, they expect them to learn that on the job. What the degree signals to the employer is that the prospective employee will comply with their corporate process.
        sevensor 2y ago
        > What the degree signals to the employer is that the prospective employee will comply with their corporate process. While this is true, I’ll take the engineer who studied diligently with an aim to learn the material over the one who was just in it for the credential. I don’t agree with your implication that you will learn the fundamentals equally well on the job. It certainly happens, but from what I’ve seen it’s usually people who never had the opportunity to learn in school who are aware of their gaps and seek to fill them in. The nonchalant attitude towards theory tends to persist in the workplace.
        pdonis 2y ago
        > I’ll take the engineer who studied diligently with an aim to learn the material over the one who was just in it for the credential. The former engineer will learn on the job just as well. The latter one won't learn well in either environment. You appear to believe that the crucial factor is the person's attitude towards learning, and I agree with that. I just don't agree that a person with that attitude towards learning is necessarily any better off going through college instead of getting a job and learning there. Particularly now, with so much good material available for free online, someone who wants to learn can do it without spending anything more than the cost of Internet access. So the opportunity to learn through college is even less beneficial for those who really want to learn than it was in the past. It might be enough of a benefit to justify college for some, but I think that number is much less than the number who actually go to college. From the employer's perspective, if you think you can evaluate someone's attitude towards learning well enough, I don't see why their having a college degree would matter much one way or the other. If you think they have the right attitude towards learning, hire them! Whatever they don't know yet, they'll learn.
SkyBelow 2y ago
It has signaled different things over the years, and generally more than one thing at a time. I think it will still signal things to employers so that having a college degree isn't going to be become useless, but it will become less sufficient. Things like internships, references, and significant take home projects/complex and long interviews will now be needed to vouch for skills in a way that a degree mostly covered in the past.

by pdonis 2y ago

ericjmorey 2y ago

I think you have a clearer understanding of the signalling that colleges have been providing for centuries than others who have been sold the lies that have been perpetuated by school administrators and those trying to justify their social advantages to those that didn't have similar advantages.

sevensor 2y ago
In a weird paradox, students who believe the lie and actually study to learn the material get more value from their education.
- pdonis 2y ago
  > get more value If actually learning is valuable to them, independent of whether it will actually help them with prospective employers, then yes. But I don't think we can assume that all students value that.
  - sevensor 2y ago
    I’m thinking about the long term here. I don’t care about grades, I think they’re a poor signal. What I care about is whether the engineer I’m working with fifteen years and four employers later actually learned the fundamentals. Some did, some didn’t, and I can tell the difference.
    - pdonis 2y ago
      > What I care about is whether the engineer I’m working with fifteen years and four employers later actually learned the fundamentals. For professional engineers, at least, the degree is not what tells you whether they have learned the fundamentals. The license is. Even for engineers in domains where there is no licensing (such as software, for example), I would expect them to have learned the fundamentals on the job, not in college. I think most employers expect the same; they don't view the college degree as a signal that the prospective employee knows the fundamentals, they expect them to learn that on the job. What the degree signals to the employer is that the prospective employee will comply with their corporate process.
      - sevensor 2y ago
        > What the degree signals to the employer is that the prospective employee will comply with their corporate process. While this is true, I’ll take the engineer who studied diligently with an aim to learn the material over the one who was just in it for the credential. I don’t agree with your implication that you will learn the fundamentals equally well on the job. It certainly happens, but from what I’ve seen it’s usually people who never had the opportunity to learn in school who are aware of their gaps and seek to fill them in. The nonchalant attitude towards theory tends to persist in the workplace.
        pdonis 2y ago
        > I’ll take the engineer who studied diligently with an aim to learn the material over the one who was just in it for the credential. The former engineer will learn on the job just as well. The latter one won't learn well in either environment. You appear to believe that the crucial factor is the person's attitude towards learning, and I agree with that. I just don't agree that a person with that attitude towards learning is necessarily any better off going through college instead of getting a job and learning there. Particularly now, with so much good material available for free online, someone who wants to learn can do it without spending anything more than the cost of Internet access. So the opportunity to learn through college is even less beneficial for those who really want to learn than it was in the past. It might be enough of a benefit to justify college for some, but I think that number is much less than the number who actually go to college. From the employer's perspective, if you think you can evaluate someone's attitude towards learning well enough, I don't see why their having a college degree would matter much one way or the other. If you think they have the right attitude towards learning, hire them! Whatever they don't know yet, they'll learn.

SkyBelow 2y ago

It has signaled different things over the years, and generally more than one thing at a time. I think it will still signal things to employers so that having a college degree isn't going to be become useless, but it will become less sufficient. Things like internships, references, and significant take home projects/complex and long interviews will now be needed to vouch for skills in a way that a degree mostly covered in the past.