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For some context: The same Boeing satellite bus already experienced a major issue some years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19658800 https://news.yc

For some context: The same Boeing satellite bus already experienced a major issue some years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19658800 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19658800

api 2y ago
The complete collapse of Boeing needs to be studied.
- SteveNuts 2y ago
  They should teach it in every MBA program in the country /s.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    You joke, but it absolutely should. Boeing is a great example of "when all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail". When MBAs are left in charge with no guardrails, this is what can happen. That's a great thing to teach to new MBAs. Every field has this potential pitfall. When you hyperfocus, bad things can happen. Know when to say when.
    - mschuster91 2y ago
      > Know when to say when. People warned about exactly what happened already back in the time when the merger happened that introduced beancounter culture to Boeing. The problem was, as always, no one listens to the warners and the whiners when there is money to be made.
      - weard_beard 2y ago
        The only counter to the money argument is tough regulation that results in jail time. If the whiners can point to an example of white collar criminal enforcement their complaints suddenly have teeth.
        DrillShopper 2y ago
        > The only counter to the money argument is tough regulation that results in jail time Okay, so it's functionally impossible with the current and likely next incoming US administration.
    - SteveNuts 2y ago
      Yeah I didn't really know how to articulate nuance of the sarcasm in my comment, I fully agree it should. But it's such a massive clusterfuck for Boeing that it seems like MBA programs should be reformed from the ground up.
      - fuzzfactor 2y ago
        >They should teach it in every MBA program in the country /s. As if it wasn't the result of what has been taught for decades, now coming of age more bigly than ever ;) >MBA programs should be reformed from the ground up. Who would do the reforming though? Academic leaders? That could be like having the inmates running the asylum :) From the ground up? If you're not careful they could end up building an insane new institution at a massive scale in an image grandiose enough that it could crush GE or something ;)
        SteveNuts 2y ago
        Yeah this is exactly why I added the /s I don't know the answer but hopefully "the powers that be" take a really close look at this situation. Every company in the US should do some serious introspection.
    - phkahler 2y ago
      >> When you hyperfocus, bad things can happen. Highly optimized systems are fragile. They work well so long as everything stays the same. Optimizing for cost will compromise other things. Quality is not a varnish to be applied after you make something, it's designed into the product and production process from the beginning - by people who understand such things.
    - kjs3 2y ago
      If you get your MBA at Emory University, you learn about the New Coke fiasco. In a building named after Roberto C. Goizueta. The Coke executive responsible for New Coke. I suspect the irony is often lost on the latest cadre of MBA grads.
      - ahoka 2y ago
        They had actually better sales after the whole thing.
        kjs3 2y ago
        Sure, after. That wasn't the plan, tho.
    - DougN7 2y ago
      But is the moral of the story that the guys that made the bad decisions got their bonuses and moved on, and aren’t affected by the aftermath? That’s what I fear the MBA’s will learn - don’t stick around.
      - dylan604 2y ago
        It's not just MBAs that don't stick around. Even in the tech world, it's common for people to bounce around. Usually what ever the vesting period is.
  - psunavy03 2y ago
    If you gave a company over to only engineers, it would also fail, just in a different way. Same with only HR, or any other field. MBAs are not the problem. Shitty MBAs and shitty leadership are the problem. MBAs aren't there to screw people over; they're there to sustainably run a company. Sure, the bad ones screw people over in the name of nickel-and-diming. But still. And no, I'm not an MBA . . .
    - baud147258 2y ago
      > If you gave a company over to only engineers, it would also fail, just in a different way Do you have an idea of what would be the failure mode(s)?
      - api 2y ago
        If engineers run the restaurant the food is excellent but the menu is confusing and there are no customers because nobody knows the restaurant exists. If sales/marketing runs the restaurant it's full but there is no food. The menu is beautiful and shows all kinds of dishes nobody knows how to make. If MBAs run the restaurant it's full of people paid to be there long enough to be counted and reported up to the investors and the food is purchased from the McDonalds next door and relabeled and resold at 3X the price. Nobody will ever come back but it doesn't matter. The metrics from this exercise are used to raise money to open three more restaurants across the street from convenient sources of cheap fast food. This novel model of running restaurants is written up in Harvard Business Review as an excellent example of an arbitrage business model. If artists run the restaurant they make and eat the food themselves and then leave.
        dylan604 2y ago
        This is a nice summation. If LLMs ever produce this kind of output, I'll buy into the tech is good.
        vkazanov 2y ago
        Engineer would first try to build a cooking machine.
schiffern 2y ago
I know the Boeing connection is the most "sexy" cause, so people are probably going to run with it anyway, but I also have to wonder about a space debris collision. GEO is already quite polluted, and the "graveyard orbits" commonly used have been shown to be inadequate.[1] Can anyone tell whether (at 60 degrees East and at 4:30 UTC October 19) the satellite was passing through the intersection with the main plane of lunar perturbed debris? This would hint at a possible debris strike. Sadly I can't seem to find a 3D satellite visualization that lets you go back in time. :-( [1] https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Images/2008/03/Spacecraft_in_a_graveyard_orbit_can_still_pose_a_threat https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Images/2008/03/Spacecraft...
- mppm 2y ago
  Maybe. But it's probably just Boeing :) This was a fairly young satellite, launched in 2016, and beset with propulsion problems from the start. It was also the second of a new series, and the first one has already failed as well.
- milgrim 2y ago
  The more interesting part for me is that a satellite just exploded, that it's made by Boeing is just the cherry on top.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    Cherry on top that propulsion issues are now problematic for Boeing satellites AND capsules. I wonder if there's a crossover in personnel in either engineering or management.
pmontra 2y ago
I was not familiar with the term satellite bus. I kind of guessed what it is but not really. Here's the link to the Wikipedia page. There might be a link to the Boeing bus in there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_bus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_bus

For some context: The same Boeing satellite bus already experienced a major issue some years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19658800 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19658800

api 2y ago

The complete collapse of Boeing needs to be studied.

SteveNuts 2y ago
They should teach it in every MBA program in the country /s.
- dylan604 2y ago
  You joke, but it absolutely should. Boeing is a great example of "when all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail". When MBAs are left in charge with no guardrails, this is what can happen. That's a great thing to teach to new MBAs. Every field has this potential pitfall. When you hyperfocus, bad things can happen. Know when to say when.
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    > Know when to say when. People warned about exactly what happened already back in the time when the merger happened that introduced beancounter culture to Boeing. The problem was, as always, no one listens to the warners and the whiners when there is money to be made.
    - weard_beard 2y ago
      The only counter to the money argument is tough regulation that results in jail time. If the whiners can point to an example of white collar criminal enforcement their complaints suddenly have teeth.
      - DrillShopper 2y ago
        > The only counter to the money argument is tough regulation that results in jail time Okay, so it's functionally impossible with the current and likely next incoming US administration.
  - SteveNuts 2y ago
    Yeah I didn't really know how to articulate nuance of the sarcasm in my comment, I fully agree it should. But it's such a massive clusterfuck for Boeing that it seems like MBA programs should be reformed from the ground up.
    - fuzzfactor 2y ago
      >They should teach it in every MBA program in the country /s. As if it wasn't the result of what has been taught for decades, now coming of age more bigly than ever ;) >MBA programs should be reformed from the ground up. Who would do the reforming though? Academic leaders? That could be like having the inmates running the asylum :) From the ground up? If you're not careful they could end up building an insane new institution at a massive scale in an image grandiose enough that it could crush GE or something ;)
      - SteveNuts 2y ago
        Yeah this is exactly why I added the /s I don't know the answer but hopefully "the powers that be" take a really close look at this situation. Every company in the US should do some serious introspection.
  - phkahler 2y ago
    >> When you hyperfocus, bad things can happen. Highly optimized systems are fragile. They work well so long as everything stays the same. Optimizing for cost will compromise other things. Quality is not a varnish to be applied after you make something, it's designed into the product and production process from the beginning - by people who understand such things.
  - kjs3 2y ago
    If you get your MBA at Emory University, you learn about the New Coke fiasco. In a building named after Roberto C. Goizueta. The Coke executive responsible for New Coke. I suspect the irony is often lost on the latest cadre of MBA grads.
    - ahoka 2y ago
      They had actually better sales after the whole thing.
      - kjs3 2y ago
        Sure, after. That wasn't the plan, tho.
  - DougN7 2y ago
    But is the moral of the story that the guys that made the bad decisions got their bonuses and moved on, and aren’t affected by the aftermath? That’s what I fear the MBA’s will learn - don’t stick around.
    - dylan604 2y ago
      It's not just MBAs that don't stick around. Even in the tech world, it's common for people to bounce around. Usually what ever the vesting period is.
- psunavy03 2y ago
  If you gave a company over to only engineers, it would also fail, just in a different way. Same with only HR, or any other field. MBAs are not the problem. Shitty MBAs and shitty leadership are the problem. MBAs aren't there to screw people over; they're there to sustainably run a company. Sure, the bad ones screw people over in the name of nickel-and-diming. But still. And no, I'm not an MBA . . .
  - baud147258 2y ago
    > If you gave a company over to only engineers, it would also fail, just in a different way Do you have an idea of what would be the failure mode(s)?
    - api 2y ago
      If engineers run the restaurant the food is excellent but the menu is confusing and there are no customers because nobody knows the restaurant exists. If sales/marketing runs the restaurant it's full but there is no food. The menu is beautiful and shows all kinds of dishes nobody knows how to make. If MBAs run the restaurant it's full of people paid to be there long enough to be counted and reported up to the investors and the food is purchased from the McDonalds next door and relabeled and resold at 3X the price. Nobody will ever come back but it doesn't matter. The metrics from this exercise are used to raise money to open three more restaurants across the street from convenient sources of cheap fast food. This novel model of running restaurants is written up in Harvard Business Review as an excellent example of an arbitrage business model. If artists run the restaurant they make and eat the food themselves and then leave.
      - dylan604 2y ago
        This is a nice summation. If LLMs ever produce this kind of output, I'll buy into the tech is good.
      - vkazanov 2y ago
        Engineer would first try to build a cooking machine.

schiffern 2y ago

I know the Boeing connection is the most "sexy" cause, so people are probably going to run with it anyway, but I also have to wonder about a space debris collision. GEO is already quite polluted, and the "graveyard orbits" commonly used have been shown to be inadequate.[1] Can anyone tell whether (at 60 degrees East and at 4:30 UTC October 19) the satellite was passing through the intersection with the main plane of lunar perturbed debris? This would hint at a possible debris strike. Sadly I can't seem to find a 3D satellite visualization that lets you go back in time. :-( [1] https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Images/2008/03/Spacecraft_in_a_graveyard_orbit_can_still_pose_a_threat https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Images/2008/03/Spacecraft...

mppm 2y ago
Maybe. But it's probably just Boeing :) This was a fairly young satellite, launched in 2016, and beset with propulsion problems from the start. It was also the second of a new series, and the first one has already failed as well.
milgrim 2y ago
The more interesting part for me is that a satellite just exploded, that it's made by Boeing is just the cherry on top.
- dylan604 2y ago
  Cherry on top that propulsion issues are now problematic for Boeing satellites AND capsules. I wonder if there's a crossover in personnel in either engineering or management.

pmontra 2y ago

I was not familiar with the term satellite bus. I kind of guessed what it is but not really. Here's the link to the Wikipedia page. There might be a link to the Boeing bus in there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_bus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_bus