4 ms·

>If we did truly devise a system that prevents cheating we’ll see that a very high percentage of current college students are not ready to be truly college educ

>If we did truly devise a system that prevents cheating we’ll see that a very high percentage of current college students are not ready to be truly college educated. Isn't it to either do that now, or to lose the signaling value of college degrees as indicating knowledge.

skhunted 2y ago
Yes. But people now teaching at higher education institutions need their classes to fill. That means we need to treat our students as if they are our customers. We must please the customer. In years past the attitude was that society at large was our client. Today the student is our client.
- greentxt 2y ago
  The student is the one paying your salary so that would be expected though, right? Where the students get the money from in the first place is the issue imo. Perverted markets do perverse things.
  - skhunted 2y ago
    In the old days the money public colleges got to operate overwhelmingly came from the state. Now it comes overwhelmingly from tuition.
lazide 2y ago
That signaling value was lost years ago.
pdonis 2y ago
> the signaling value of college degrees as indicating knowledge I'm not sure knowledge is what a college degree signals to prospective employers. The alternative hypothesis, which AFAIK has a fair bit of support, is that it signals a willingness to do whatever it takes to fulfill a set of on paper requirements imposed by an institution, by hook or by crook.
- ericjmorey 2y ago
  I think you have a clearer understanding of the signalling that colleges have been providing for centuries than others who have been sold the lies that have been perpetuated by school administrators and those trying to justify their social advantages to those that didn't have similar advantages.
  - sevensor 2y ago
    In a weird paradox, students who believe the lie and actually study to learn the material get more value from their education.
    - pdonis 2y ago
      > get more value If actually learning is valuable to them, independent of whether it will actually help them with prospective employers, then yes. But I don't think we can assume that all students value that.
      - sevensor 2y ago
        I’m thinking about the long term here. I don’t care about grades, I think they’re a poor signal. What I care about is whether the engineer I’m working with fifteen years and four employers later actually learned the fundamentals. Some did, some didn’t, and I can tell the difference.
        pdonis 2y ago
        > What I care about is whether the engineer I’m working with fifteen years and four employers later actually learned the fundamentals. For professional engineers, at least, the degree is not what tells you whether they have learned the fundamentals. The license is. Even for engineers in domains where there is no licensing (such as software, for example), I would expect them to have learned the fundamentals on the job, not in college. I think most employers expect the same; they don't view the college degree as a signal that the prospective employee knows the fundamentals, they expect them to learn that on the job. What the degree signals to the employer is that the prospective employee will comply with their corporate process.

skhunted 2y ago

Yes. But people now teaching at higher education institutions need their classes to fill. That means we need to treat our students as if they are our customers. We must please the customer. In years past the attitude was that society at large was our client. Today the student is our client.

greentxt 2y ago
The student is the one paying your salary so that would be expected though, right? Where the students get the money from in the first place is the issue imo. Perverted markets do perverse things.
- skhunted 2y ago
  In the old days the money public colleges got to operate overwhelmingly came from the state. Now it comes overwhelmingly from tuition.

lazide 2y ago

That signaling value was lost years ago.

pdonis 2y ago

> the signaling value of college degrees as indicating knowledge I'm not sure knowledge is what a college degree signals to prospective employers. The alternative hypothesis, which AFAIK has a fair bit of support, is that it signals a willingness to do whatever it takes to fulfill a set of on paper requirements imposed by an institution, by hook or by crook.

ericjmorey 2y ago
I think you have a clearer understanding of the signalling that colleges have been providing for centuries than others who have been sold the lies that have been perpetuated by school administrators and those trying to justify their social advantages to those that didn't have similar advantages.
- sevensor 2y ago
  In a weird paradox, students who believe the lie and actually study to learn the material get more value from their education.
  - pdonis 2y ago
    > get more value If actually learning is valuable to them, independent of whether it will actually help them with prospective employers, then yes. But I don't think we can assume that all students value that.
    - sevensor 2y ago
      I’m thinking about the long term here. I don’t care about grades, I think they’re a poor signal. What I care about is whether the engineer I’m working with fifteen years and four employers later actually learned the fundamentals. Some did, some didn’t, and I can tell the difference.
      - pdonis 2y ago
        > What I care about is whether the engineer I’m working with fifteen years and four employers later actually learned the fundamentals. For professional engineers, at least, the degree is not what tells you whether they have learned the fundamentals. The license is. Even for engineers in domains where there is no licensing (such as software, for example), I would expect them to have learned the fundamentals on the job, not in college. I think most employers expect the same; they don't view the college degree as a signal that the prospective employee knows the fundamentals, they expect them to learn that on the job. What the degree signals to the employer is that the prospective employee will comply with their corporate process.