6 ms·

Over 40% of foreigner deaths in Korea have unknown causes

45 points by type0 2y ago

aurareturn 2y ago
A lot of SK's foreigner workforce are unskilled laborers from poorer countries. So one explanation could be work related but unspecified due to company reputation or that no one simply cares about poor foreign workers.
- potato3732842 2y ago
  This is South Korea we're talking about here, not some 3rd world ship scrapping yard. 4/10 foreign person deaths being workplace deaths would be insane when you consider how many foreign workers are employed in mundane service industry jobs with basically no risk of dying on the job.
  - narism 2y ago
    A huge proportion of foreign workers in SK are in either the manufacturing, construction, or agriculture sectors, often with poor working/living conditions. https://www.chosun.com/english/industry-en/2024/06/26/IL43VMYMBBDSDJQS7ZW57NTIN4/ https://www.chosun.com/english/industry-en/2024/06/26/IL43VM... https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-10-30/south-korea-labor-crisis-migrant-workers-unsafe-conditions https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-10-30/south-... https://www.bis.org/publ/bppdf/bispap100_m.pdf https://www.bis.org/publ/bppdf/bispap100_m.pdf
  - rcxdude 2y ago
    Well, people in those jobs aren't very likely to be showing up on either side of that ratio.
- aaron695 2y ago
  [dead]
- aithrowawaycomm 2y ago
  I am sure it's more benign than that, although of course exploiting foreign labor is an issue. South Korea has problems but it is a liberal democracy whose economy does not depend on cheap manual labor like the UAE; if large numbers of foreign workers were being killed on the job, a Korean citizen or rights group would blow the whistle. I believe South Korea (like most industrialized countries) does not offer single-payer health insurance to most foreigners, who either have to purchase it themselves or go without. It seems likely that a large number of foreign residents get sick and never go to a doctor. Without a medical history it's not easy to determine a cause of natural death in an older sick person, even with a good autopsy.
  - sudosysgen 2y ago
    Most industrialized countries do offer single payer healthcare to taxpaying foreigners, perhaps after a reasonable period of time.
    - aithrowawaycomm 2y ago
      No, they offer single-payer healthcare to legal permanent residents. There is a significant gap with temporary residents, including people shuffling back and forth on work visas which might get shadily overextended with under-the-table work, or undocumented immigrants (no reason to use a dishonest and inflammatory term like “taxpaying foreigners” when you mean “legal residents,” paying taxes is not the issue).
      - sudosysgen 2y ago
        In most of the industrialized world you can't pay taxes if you're not there legally. And there is no need to be a permanent resident for single payer healthcare in most countries, just to be there working legally for some time. I wrote "taxpaying foreigner" as opposed to "permanent resident" because most industrialized countries do indeed offer their healthcare to non-permanent residents on work visas. For example in Ontario after 90 days you have access to single payer healthcare. In France you get it after 3 months, in Spain after 2-6 months depending on the locality, etc...
h2odragon 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death
boodleboodle 2y ago
Just to add context: "unknown causes" was the leading cause of death for Korean citizens as well in 2023 and not just foreigners. Half of deaths with "unknown causes" is dying from old age. Other factors include SID, etc.
- lubujackson 2y ago
  "Old age" isn't a cause of death? Maybe more appropriate is "Korea doesn't care about tracking the cause of death." That, or they are butchering foreigners and old people over there.
  - duskwuff 2y ago
    Old age isn't a cause of death. It can be a contributing factor, but it isn't an immediate cause.
  - BobaFloutist 2y ago
    I think they're saying more that when the ultimate cause of a fairly unsurprising death is unclear or ambiguous, unlike saying "CHF" or "Brain Death" as the "cause" like we often do, they just say "unknown." To clarify, heart failure and brain death are going to be part of every death, no matter the ultimate cause, but sometimes if it's a little difficult to pinpoint the actual reason someone whose body was failing kind of across the board died, the doctor declaring death will just pick a failed organ that was clearly linked to the death and point the finger at it.
    - southernplaces7 2y ago
      >To clarify, heart failure and brain death are going to be part of every death Not entirely related to the topic at hand, but i want to mention it as a darkly amusing anecdote: During the heyday of the Soviet NKVD's (predecessor to the KGB) management of Stalin's monstrous purge of Soviet society, hundreds of thousands of people were killed in all sorts of ways. Many of them died by torture or just by being shot illegally (even by Stalinist Soviet standards) Since publicly acknowledging this made for bad optics even in the Stalinist USSR, a very common formal, officially recorded cause of death in these cases was "heart failure". Why? Because whether you shoot, starve, freeze or beat and torture someone to death, their ultimate cause of death involves the stopping of their heart. It's crudely honest for the sake of superficial legality, without being in the least bit truly honest about the context of what was happening.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
kelavaster 2y ago
Fans
worstspotgain 2y ago
The obvious follow-up question would be: is there a correlation between specific nationalities and the fraction of "unknown cause" deaths?
wtcactus 2y ago
Whenever it’s simply stated we are talking about Korea, I always assume we are talking about North Korea: the only and best Korea.

45 points by type0 2y ago

A lot of SK's foreigner workforce are unskilled laborers from poorer countries. So one explanation could be work related but unspecified due to company reputation or that no one simply cares about poor foreign workers.

potato3732842 2y ago
This is South Korea we're talking about here, not some 3rd world ship scrapping yard. 4/10 foreign person deaths being workplace deaths would be insane when you consider how many foreign workers are employed in mundane service industry jobs with basically no risk of dying on the job.
- narism 2y ago
  A huge proportion of foreign workers in SK are in either the manufacturing, construction, or agriculture sectors, often with poor working/living conditions. https://www.chosun.com/english/industry-en/2024/06/26/IL43VMYMBBDSDJQS7ZW57NTIN4/ https://www.chosun.com/english/industry-en/2024/06/26/IL43VM... https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-10-30/south-korea-labor-crisis-migrant-workers-unsafe-conditions https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-10-30/south-... https://www.bis.org/publ/bppdf/bispap100_m.pdf https://www.bis.org/publ/bppdf/bispap100_m.pdf
- rcxdude 2y ago
  Well, people in those jobs aren't very likely to be showing up on either side of that ratio.
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]
aithrowawaycomm 2y ago
I am sure it's more benign than that, although of course exploiting foreign labor is an issue. South Korea has problems but it is a liberal democracy whose economy does not depend on cheap manual labor like the UAE; if large numbers of foreign workers were being killed on the job, a Korean citizen or rights group would blow the whistle. I believe South Korea (like most industrialized countries) does not offer single-payer health insurance to most foreigners, who either have to purchase it themselves or go without. It seems likely that a large number of foreign residents get sick and never go to a doctor. Without a medical history it's not easy to determine a cause of natural death in an older sick person, even with a good autopsy.
- sudosysgen 2y ago
  Most industrialized countries do offer single payer healthcare to taxpaying foreigners, perhaps after a reasonable period of time.
  - aithrowawaycomm 2y ago
    No, they offer single-payer healthcare to legal permanent residents. There is a significant gap with temporary residents, including people shuffling back and forth on work visas which might get shadily overextended with under-the-table work, or undocumented immigrants (no reason to use a dishonest and inflammatory term like “taxpaying foreigners” when you mean “legal residents,” paying taxes is not the issue).
    - sudosysgen 2y ago
      In most of the industrialized world you can't pay taxes if you're not there legally. And there is no need to be a permanent resident for single payer healthcare in most countries, just to be there working legally for some time. I wrote "taxpaying foreigner" as opposed to "permanent resident" because most industrialized countries do indeed offer their healthcare to non-permanent residents on work visas. For example in Ontario after 90 days you have access to single payer healthcare. In France you get it after 3 months, in Spain after 2-6 months depending on the locality, etc...

h2odragon 2y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death

boodleboodle 2y ago

Just to add context: "unknown causes" was the leading cause of death for Korean citizens as well in 2023 and not just foreigners. Half of deaths with "unknown causes" is dying from old age. Other factors include SID, etc.

lubujackson 2y ago
"Old age" isn't a cause of death? Maybe more appropriate is "Korea doesn't care about tracking the cause of death." That, or they are butchering foreigners and old people over there.
- duskwuff 2y ago
  Old age isn't a cause of death. It can be a contributing factor, but it isn't an immediate cause.
- BobaFloutist 2y ago
  I think they're saying more that when the ultimate cause of a fairly unsurprising death is unclear or ambiguous, unlike saying "CHF" or "Brain Death" as the "cause" like we often do, they just say "unknown." To clarify, heart failure and brain death are going to be part of every death, no matter the ultimate cause, but sometimes if it's a little difficult to pinpoint the actual reason someone whose body was failing kind of across the board died, the doctor declaring death will just pick a failed organ that was clearly linked to the death and point the finger at it.
  - southernplaces7 2y ago
    >To clarify, heart failure and brain death are going to be part of every death Not entirely related to the topic at hand, but i want to mention it as a darkly amusing anecdote: During the heyday of the Soviet NKVD's (predecessor to the KGB) management of Stalin's monstrous purge of Soviet society, hundreds of thousands of people were killed in all sorts of ways. Many of them died by torture or just by being shot illegally (even by Stalinist Soviet standards) Since publicly acknowledging this made for bad optics even in the Stalinist USSR, a very common formal, officially recorded cause of death in these cases was "heart failure". Why? Because whether you shoot, starve, freeze or beat and torture someone to death, their ultimate cause of death involves the stopping of their heart. It's crudely honest for the sake of superficial legality, without being in the least bit truly honest about the context of what was happening.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

kelavaster 2y ago

Fans

worstspotgain 2y ago

The obvious follow-up question would be: is there a correlation between specific nationalities and the fraction of "unknown cause" deaths?

wtcactus 2y ago

Whenever it’s simply stated we are talking about Korea, I always assume we are talking about North Korea: the only and best Korea.