7 ms·

I'd like to imagine a world where every lawyer, when their case is helped by a Wayback Machine snapshot of something, flips a few bucks to IA. They could afford

I'd like to imagine a world where every lawyer, when their case is helped by a Wayback Machine snapshot of something, flips a few bucks to IA. They could afford a world-class admin team in no time flat.

thaumasiotes 2y ago
That's a terrible solution. The Wayback Machine takes down their snapshots at the request of whoever controls the domain. That's not archival. If the state of a webpage in the past matters to you, you need a record that won't cease to exist when your opposition asks it to. This is the concept behind perma.cc.
- myself248 2y ago
  Ooo, excellent. Yes, hiding items is imperfect, but I understood that it was legally required or something. (IANAL and IDFK, TBH) I wonder how perma.cc gets around that.
  - immibis 2y ago
    Most likely by breaking the law.
  - berdario 2y ago
    I'm afraid that it just hasn't been tested in court yet. I haven't read this paper yet, but... https://www.tesble.com/10.1080/0270319x.2021.1886785 https://www.tesble.com/10.1080/0270319x.2021.1886785 from the abstract: > The article concludes that Perma.cc's archival use is neither firmly grounded in existing fair use nor library exemptions; that Perma.cc, its "registrar" library, institutional affiliates, and its contributors have some (at least theoretical) exposure to risk It seems that the article is about copyright, but of course there are several other reasons that might justify takedown of content stored on perma.cc: - Right to be forgotten... perma.cc might be able to ignore it, but could this lead to perma.cc being blocked by european ISPs - ITAR stuff - content published by entities recognized by $GOVERNMENT as terrorist organizations - revenge porn - CSAM
    - myself248 2y ago
      So, precisely the same constraints that IA operates under, just perma.cc isn't big enough yet to have been forced to comply with them? I'll hold my breath.
- db48x 2y ago
  No, they don’t delete the archived content. When the domain’s robots.txt file bans spidering, then the Wayback Machine _hides_ the content archived at that domain. It is still stored and maintained, but it isn’t distributed via the website. The content will be unhidden if the robots.txt file stops banning spiders, or if an appropriate request is made.
  - speerer 2y ago
    In some cases they do appear to delete, on request. edit: "Other types of removal requests may also be sent to info@archive.org. Please provide as clear an explanation as possible as to what you are requesting be removed for us to better understand your reason for making the request.", https://help.archive.org/help/how-do-i-request-to-remove-something-from-archive-org-2/ https://help.archive.org/help/how-do-i-request-to-remove-som...
    - db48x 2y ago
      Nope. Nothing is deleted, just hidden.
      - rascul 2y ago
        How do you know?
        db48x 2y ago
        I worked there for a short while.
        bombcar 2y ago
        So if the Internet Archive accidentally archived child porn, they wouldn’t delete it? I suspect they DO delete some things.
        db48x 2y ago
- speerer 2y ago
  That's correct, but only for present evidence - what about the past evidence, that you didn't know you needed until it was too late? IA is broad enough to cover the past five times out of ten.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

thaumasiotes 2y ago

That's a terrible solution. The Wayback Machine takes down their snapshots at the request of whoever controls the domain. That's not archival. If the state of a webpage in the past matters to you, you need a record that won't cease to exist when your opposition asks it to. This is the concept behind perma.cc.

myself248 2y ago
Ooo, excellent. Yes, hiding items is imperfect, but I understood that it was legally required or something. (IANAL and IDFK, TBH) I wonder how perma.cc gets around that.
- immibis 2y ago
  Most likely by breaking the law.
- berdario 2y ago
  I'm afraid that it just hasn't been tested in court yet. I haven't read this paper yet, but... https://www.tesble.com/10.1080/0270319x.2021.1886785 https://www.tesble.com/10.1080/0270319x.2021.1886785 from the abstract: > The article concludes that Perma.cc's archival use is neither firmly grounded in existing fair use nor library exemptions; that Perma.cc, its "registrar" library, institutional affiliates, and its contributors have some (at least theoretical) exposure to risk It seems that the article is about copyright, but of course there are several other reasons that might justify takedown of content stored on perma.cc: - Right to be forgotten... perma.cc might be able to ignore it, but could this lead to perma.cc being blocked by european ISPs - ITAR stuff - content published by entities recognized by $GOVERNMENT as terrorist organizations - revenge porn - CSAM
  - myself248 2y ago
    So, precisely the same constraints that IA operates under, just perma.cc isn't big enough yet to have been forced to comply with them? I'll hold my breath.
db48x 2y ago
No, they don’t delete the archived content. When the domain’s robots.txt file bans spidering, then the Wayback Machine _hides_ the content archived at that domain. It is still stored and maintained, but it isn’t distributed via the website. The content will be unhidden if the robots.txt file stops banning spiders, or if an appropriate request is made.
- speerer 2y ago
  In some cases they do appear to delete, on request. edit: "Other types of removal requests may also be sent to info@archive.org. Please provide as clear an explanation as possible as to what you are requesting be removed for us to better understand your reason for making the request.", https://help.archive.org/help/how-do-i-request-to-remove-something-from-archive-org-2/ https://help.archive.org/help/how-do-i-request-to-remove-som...
  - db48x 2y ago
    Nope. Nothing is deleted, just hidden.
    - rascul 2y ago
      How do you know?
      - db48x 2y ago
        I worked there for a short while.
        bombcar 2y ago
        So if the Internet Archive accidentally archived child porn, they wouldn’t delete it? I suspect they DO delete some things.
        db48x 2y ago
speerer 2y ago
That's correct, but only for present evidence - what about the past evidence, that you didn't know you needed until it was too late? IA is broad enough to cover the past five times out of ten.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]