6 ms·

SF MUNI approves $212M technology from Hitachi to replace floppy disks by 2028

30 points by thoughtpeddler 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
rasz 2y ago
Sounds much better than $20 Gotek /s
purpleblue 2y ago
For $212M I think keeping the floppy disks are worth it.
- Etheryte 2y ago
  The floppies are a red herring that makes for a catchy headline, they're paying $212M to replace the whole train control system from 1998.
suhastech 2y ago
This isn't really about the floppy disks; it's about the installation of a new signalling system but it does make a good headline.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  It's helpful for people to know just how "sticky" antiquated interfaces can be in a complex, mission-critical system - and how expensive they can be to replace (even though it's just one part of the overall upgrade of course). So in that sense I find the reference to be useful, and not clickbait.
_fat_santa 2y ago
https://archive.is/MBAJV https://archive.is/MBAJV
rsynnott 2y ago
The headline's kinda clickbait (they're not charging $212M to replace some floppy drives or anything; it's a whole new system). However, I always wonder with these weird old floppy-dependent systems... Where on earth are they getting the floppy disks at this point? They don't last forever. As far as I can see, no-one actually makes them anymore; are they just depleting a reserve supply? The other slightly odd part is that the system was put in in _1998_, at which point floppy dependence was already a _bit_ on the archaic side. Possibly Hitachi just had an old system going cheap...
- opwieurposiu 2y ago
  Tom Persky at https://www.floppydisk.com/ https://www.floppydisk.com/ is selling them for a few more years yet. https://www.theregister.com/2022/09/20/floppy_disk_business/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=auto&utm_content=article&s=31 https://www.theregister.com/2022/09/20/floppy_disk_business/... You can get a 10 pack for 15 bucks.
  - rsynnott 2y ago
    Huh. Good to know there's a solution, I suppose... Even if it's uncomfortably dependent on one guy and his warehouse full of disks.
- pacaro 2y ago
  Just that thinking about the "floppy drive in 1998" question. I can think of a couple of things at play The system was likely designed a long time before 1998, because of how this type of contract works Even in 1998 USB was very new, so thumb drives weren't an option CDs were ubiquitous, but cd writers were not Proprietary tech was available, Zip and Jazz drives come to mind, or maybe even minidisc in that timeframe, but any would have been a poor choice in hindsight Tape would presumably have been considered, but was already notorious for long term compatibility (in 99 I had to restore from a tape backup that was only a couple of years old and we couldn't easily find compatible hardware) There were other proprietary optical storage media in the market, but they were expensive and aimed at the long term storage market (heaven help you if that's how your archives are stored) If they needed a cheap, easily written, and distributable media, they didn't have a lot of good choices. We still don't have a good choice for this if you want your system air gapped. I sure as hell wouldn't let anyone plug a USB device into a safety critical system
iamleppert 2y ago
"Whole new system" means basically putting Wifi AP's in the station, and on the trains and using WiFi localization technology that has been around for ages. Most of the money in that quote comes from the 20 year service plan (read: paying a few techs making $30-40/hr to be on call for 20 years). Should it really cost that much? Probably not.
- danudey 2y ago
  Well, "basically putting Wifi APs in the station and on the trains" isn't really what you want for a billion-dollar organization that handles 140 million rides a year. You need redundancy, upgraded communications paths, you need it to handle interference, you need it to work above and below ground, you need it to be secured. The 20-year service plan needs to include replacing hardware that fails (instead of just saying "sorry we don't make that anymore"); it needs to include security updates, expansions, it needs to include monitoring, it needs to include people knowing how the system works and what it does for 20 years (and not just having people retire and taking knowledge with them). It includes training, it includes escalation and SLAs, it includes the software (which will likely need to be customized for SF MUNI's specific needs), bug fixes, hardware support. It needs to support whatever OS they're running 18 years from now instead of just saying "Run Windows 10 on your clients until 2034 when it's 20 years old and you have to pay Microsoft for extended support". It boggles the mind that people on HN of all places look at short-form newspaper articles summarizing complex systems they don't understand and then post the most uninformed, reductionist armchair takes imaginable.
- ThePowerOfFuet 2y ago
  With CBTC, the localization is not done using Wi-Fi; balises and odometry tell the train exactly where it is, and it tells the system that via Wi-Fi or whatever other radio link it has.
ww520 2y ago
A lot of subways have accepted the use of contactless credit cards or debit cards by touching the readers at the gates to pay for the fares. BART and MUNI still use Clipper card only. I’ve asked someone work inside and he said the suppliers of the readers won’t upgrade them. Not sure what the deal is.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  Given that you can, fairly easily, get a virtual stored value card on your phone, arguably little reason to change. As a visitor to SF, I was able to set up a virtual Clipper card and top it up in a few seconds, and it's presumably a lot cheaper and less complex for the operator (doesn't require talking to card networks). Though, I still have ~$8 Clipper credit on my phone that I may or may not ever use...
  - ww520 2y ago
    I had $20 on the old magnetic strip card that was never used and got obsoleted. I had Clipper cards laying around with various remaining balances. I suspect the loose changes gained by the operators gave them less incentives to move forward.
- danudey 2y ago
  > he said the suppliers of the readers won’t upgrade them. Not sure what the deal is. It's not worth the money to the suppliers to go through the trouble of managing the upgrade of that one system alone; likely there's an opportunity cost where they have limited resources and they want to focus on the bigger projects making bigger impacts and bigger sales. The last building I lived in, the sliding balcony doors were all starting to wear out. Building management called the company that made the doors to ask them about repairs or replacement and were told that the cost of replacing the doors for people isn't worth their time; basically, why would they come fix our old balcony doors for $x when they could spend their time on building and installing new balcony doors on a new build for $xx?
  - Tostino 2y ago
doublerabbit 2y ago
They should upgrade to minidiscs and truly welcome the cyberpunk dystopian future.
DerekL 2y ago
The title is misspelled. It should be “Muni”, like the article's title, not in all caps.
- tdeck 2y ago
  I was about to comment that the proper spelling is MUNI but the I looked here [1] and they're spelling it Muni now? I can't seem to find anything written about the change, while I find plenty of older documents with the all caps spelling. I wonder if some branding agency got paid for this brilliant idea. https://www.sfmta.com/muni-transit https://www.sfmta.com/muni-transit
  - DerekL 2y ago
    Also, the logo is all-caps. “Muni” isn't an acronym, it's short for “Municipal Railway”.
    - musicale 2y ago
      I thought it stood for Marginally Usable Network Infrastructure.
Clamchop 2y ago
Shamefully dishonest headline.
andbberger 2y ago
will it lead to muni running more service for less money? (it won't) then they shouldn't be doing it seltrac is fine. MBTA's green line does just fine with block signaling
DerekL 2y ago
A previous news story claimed that the system used 5.25-inch disks, instead of 3.5-inch, which would have been strange for a system that was purchased in 1998. It turns out that it actually was 3.5-inch disks. The correction is in this article: https://sfist.com/2024/08/07/muni-to-update-train-control-system-from-floppy-disk-era-over-the-next-ten-years/ https://sfist.com/2024/08/07/muni-to-update-train-control-sy....
more_corn 2y ago
Perhaps this time they’ll put a maintenance and upgrade path clause into the contract so they don’t get into the same bad state as before. Who am I kidding there’s no way.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

rasz 2y ago

Sounds much better than $20 Gotek /s

purpleblue 2y ago

For $212M I think keeping the floppy disks are worth it.

Etheryte 2y ago
The floppies are a red herring that makes for a catchy headline, they're paying $212M to replace the whole train control system from 1998.

suhastech 2y ago

This isn't really about the floppy disks; it's about the installation of a new signalling system but it does make a good headline.

aguaviva 2y ago
It's helpful for people to know just how "sticky" antiquated interfaces can be in a complex, mission-critical system - and how expensive they can be to replace (even though it's just one part of the overall upgrade of course). So in that sense I find the reference to be useful, and not clickbait.

_fat_santa 2y ago

https://archive.is/MBAJV https://archive.is/MBAJV

rsynnott 2y ago

The headline's kinda clickbait (they're not charging $212M to replace some floppy drives or anything; it's a whole new system). However, I always wonder with these weird old floppy-dependent systems... Where on earth are they getting the floppy disks at this point? They don't last forever. As far as I can see, no-one actually makes them anymore; are they just depleting a reserve supply? The other slightly odd part is that the system was put in in _1998_, at which point floppy dependence was already a _bit_ on the archaic side. Possibly Hitachi just had an old system going cheap...

opwieurposiu 2y ago
Tom Persky at https://www.floppydisk.com/ https://www.floppydisk.com/ is selling them for a few more years yet. https://www.theregister.com/2022/09/20/floppy_disk_business/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=auto&utm_content=article&s=31 https://www.theregister.com/2022/09/20/floppy_disk_business/... You can get a 10 pack for 15 bucks.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  Huh. Good to know there's a solution, I suppose... Even if it's uncomfortably dependent on one guy and his warehouse full of disks.
pacaro 2y ago
Just that thinking about the "floppy drive in 1998" question. I can think of a couple of things at play The system was likely designed a long time before 1998, because of how this type of contract works Even in 1998 USB was very new, so thumb drives weren't an option CDs were ubiquitous, but cd writers were not Proprietary tech was available, Zip and Jazz drives come to mind, or maybe even minidisc in that timeframe, but any would have been a poor choice in hindsight Tape would presumably have been considered, but was already notorious for long term compatibility (in 99 I had to restore from a tape backup that was only a couple of years old and we couldn't easily find compatible hardware) There were other proprietary optical storage media in the market, but they were expensive and aimed at the long term storage market (heaven help you if that's how your archives are stored) If they needed a cheap, easily written, and distributable media, they didn't have a lot of good choices. We still don't have a good choice for this if you want your system air gapped. I sure as hell wouldn't let anyone plug a USB device into a safety critical system

iamleppert 2y ago

"Whole new system" means basically putting Wifi AP's in the station, and on the trains and using WiFi localization technology that has been around for ages. Most of the money in that quote comes from the 20 year service plan (read: paying a few techs making $30-40/hr to be on call for 20 years). Should it really cost that much? Probably not.

danudey 2y ago
Well, "basically putting Wifi APs in the station and on the trains" isn't really what you want for a billion-dollar organization that handles 140 million rides a year. You need redundancy, upgraded communications paths, you need it to handle interference, you need it to work above and below ground, you need it to be secured. The 20-year service plan needs to include replacing hardware that fails (instead of just saying "sorry we don't make that anymore"); it needs to include security updates, expansions, it needs to include monitoring, it needs to include people knowing how the system works and what it does for 20 years (and not just having people retire and taking knowledge with them). It includes training, it includes escalation and SLAs, it includes the software (which will likely need to be customized for SF MUNI's specific needs), bug fixes, hardware support. It needs to support whatever OS they're running 18 years from now instead of just saying "Run Windows 10 on your clients until 2034 when it's 20 years old and you have to pay Microsoft for extended support". It boggles the mind that people on HN of all places look at short-form newspaper articles summarizing complex systems they don't understand and then post the most uninformed, reductionist armchair takes imaginable.
ThePowerOfFuet 2y ago
With CBTC, the localization is not done using Wi-Fi; balises and odometry tell the train exactly where it is, and it tells the system that via Wi-Fi or whatever other radio link it has.

ww520 2y ago

A lot of subways have accepted the use of contactless credit cards or debit cards by touching the readers at the gates to pay for the fares. BART and MUNI still use Clipper card only. I’ve asked someone work inside and he said the suppliers of the readers won’t upgrade them. Not sure what the deal is.

rsynnott 2y ago
Given that you can, fairly easily, get a virtual stored value card on your phone, arguably little reason to change. As a visitor to SF, I was able to set up a virtual Clipper card and top it up in a few seconds, and it's presumably a lot cheaper and less complex for the operator (doesn't require talking to card networks). Though, I still have ~$8 Clipper credit on my phone that I may or may not ever use...
- ww520 2y ago
  I had $20 on the old magnetic strip card that was never used and got obsoleted. I had Clipper cards laying around with various remaining balances. I suspect the loose changes gained by the operators gave them less incentives to move forward.
danudey 2y ago
> he said the suppliers of the readers won’t upgrade them. Not sure what the deal is. It's not worth the money to the suppliers to go through the trouble of managing the upgrade of that one system alone; likely there's an opportunity cost where they have limited resources and they want to focus on the bigger projects making bigger impacts and bigger sales. The last building I lived in, the sliding balcony doors were all starting to wear out. Building management called the company that made the doors to ask them about repairs or replacement and were told that the cost of replacing the doors for people isn't worth their time; basically, why would they come fix our old balcony doors for $x when they could spend their time on building and installing new balcony doors on a new build for $xx?
- Tostino 2y ago

doublerabbit 2y ago

They should upgrade to minidiscs and truly welcome the cyberpunk dystopian future.

DerekL 2y ago

The title is misspelled. It should be “Muni”, like the article's title, not in all caps.

tdeck 2y ago
I was about to comment that the proper spelling is MUNI but the I looked here [1] and they're spelling it Muni now? I can't seem to find anything written about the change, while I find plenty of older documents with the all caps spelling. I wonder if some branding agency got paid for this brilliant idea. https://www.sfmta.com/muni-transit https://www.sfmta.com/muni-transit
- DerekL 2y ago
  Also, the logo is all-caps. “Muni” isn't an acronym, it's short for “Municipal Railway”.
  - musicale 2y ago
    I thought it stood for Marginally Usable Network Infrastructure.

Clamchop 2y ago

Shamefully dishonest headline.

andbberger 2y ago

will it lead to muni running more service for less money? (it won't) then they shouldn't be doing it seltrac is fine. MBTA's green line does just fine with block signaling

DerekL 2y ago

A previous news story claimed that the system used 5.25-inch disks, instead of 3.5-inch, which would have been strange for a system that was purchased in 1998. It turns out that it actually was 3.5-inch disks. The correction is in this article: https://sfist.com/2024/08/07/muni-to-update-train-control-system-from-floppy-disk-era-over-the-next-ten-years/ https://sfist.com/2024/08/07/muni-to-update-train-control-sy....

more_corn 2y ago

Perhaps this time they’ll put a maintenance and upgrade path clause into the contract so they don’t get into the same bad state as before. Who am I kidding there’s no way.