7 ms·

DragonBox: Gaming children into learning algebra

164 points by RudeBaguette 14y ago

Start 14y ago
What I like particularly here is how every feedback and game design element contribute to the fused goal of learning-playing. Textbook game design elegance!
ctdonath 14y ago
My 4-year-old loves it. What can I say? She barely knows the alphabet yet she's learning algebra for fun!
- VSerge 14y ago
  Hey, I'd love to hear more about it, and I'm sure the founders of DragonBox makers We Want To Know would too, since they had kids twice this age in mind when they designed the game... reach me on sversille@flirtatiouslabs.com and I'll be more than happy to pass on your feedback directly to the founders.
  - ctdonath 14y ago
    Pretty simple case. I walked her thru the first 2-3 levels, and she just kinda quietly disappeared into it. I then had to explain the "times one" and "x/x" rules, which only took a few seconds. Next thing I notice is she has completed at least 15 levels (if not two whole "worlds"; app may have been deleted & restored at some point). At last interaction she was puzzled that you couldn't make the swirling vortex (to wit: 0) disappear leaving an empty tray ("that's just how it is, you can't have an empty tray" "ok"). I'll keep feeding it to her and keep you appraised.
- dr42 14y ago
  Since by 4 most kids know the alphabet I wonder what the long term implications are of learning algebra first. Maybe letters won't feel like parts of words, but instead she'll look at them as problems to solve. I wonder what the big rush is with children, symbolic manipulation in a 4 year old's world has very little implication. Manipulating her environment through motor skils, developing ever more sophisticated interactions with other children, play etc, all seem to be much more useful. But anything that's fun is very likely good. I wonder how much of the fun is her reading back to you your enjoyment at seeing your offspring participate in algebra. The first rule of being a 4 year old is to please the parents. They, after all, provide everything.
  - ehsanu1 14y ago
    Most people develop motor skills just fine, but are not that great with symbolic manipulation. It's not easy to predict the kinds of effects early exposure to this kind of stuff can have on a human being in the long term, but it may be significantly positive (and maybe even negative).
  - donw 14y ago
    I realize that this is purely anecdotal, but may answer your question. My father got me playing around with programming when I was very young -- I think six or eight years old. Some of my first memories involve our VIC-20 computer. While a lot of what I did was just typing in simple programs from a book, I did some experimentation on my own, and it became pretty obvious how variables, loops, and the rest worked. When I hit school I was mathematically so far ahead of everybody else, not because I'm some kind of genius, but because I had already spent a lot of time unknowingly learning algebra. This was a disadvantage, because the school system wasn't built to cope with a kid that understood algebra before he had memorized the multiplication table. As an adult, however, I've enjoyed a pretty serious advantage when it comes to understanding abstract concepts, especially anything involving symbolic manipulation, and I think I can thank that VIC-20 BASIC manual from many years ago for it. I wouldn't be too worried about starting a kid out 'too soon', provided that other areas of the child's mental development aren't neglected in favor of developing mathematical skills.
    - heimidal 14y ago
      I had a similar experience. My father and grandfather introduced me to computers and programming at a very young age, and I ultimately taught myself algebra, geometry, and basic trigonometry by age 10. From fifth grade, I was bored out of my mind during math class. In sixth grade, my math teacher recognized my boredom to be a lack of challenge and decided she should do something about it. I was pulled into the vice principal's office at one point and asked to slow down my at-home learning because the teachers did not know what to do with me during class. Eventually, we settled on a solution: I became the equivalent of a teacher's aid for my middle school class and tutored other kids who were having difficulty. This instilled a love for teaching that I carry with me to this day. I don't think we should discourage children from learning at a fast pace as long as they appear to retain the information and it doesn't compromise other aspects of development. On the contrary, we need to find a way to help our education system cope with children learning things outside the classroom.
AndrewDucker 14y ago
Previously: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4105397 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4105397
- RudeBaguette 14y ago
  That was a great article by Wired! We decided to write about them because they are a partly French-based company, and our news site covers French startups, tech and innovation. Thanks for the link! -Liam @ The Rude Baguette
  - AndrewDucker 14y ago
    Yes, wasn't trying to denigrate your work - just pointing to previous discussion people might find useful.
    - RudeBaguette 14y ago
      Oh definitely. Don't worry, no offense taken - just wanted to take the opportunity to promote us a bit ;-)
jamessun 14y ago
Reminds me of the "head fake" from Randy Pausch's Last Lecture video, http://www.cmu.edu/randyslecture/ http://www.cmu.edu/randyslecture/
mml 14y ago
My 6 year old finished the first version, so we went and bought dragonbox+. a bit disappointed to find the same set of problems, with some additional bonus stuff. Was expecting an an entirely new set, could have saved myself a few bucks and just got db+. that being said, an amazingly effective game. after she finishes the bonus problems, i'll be showing her how to work them on paper.
- j05h 14y ago
  I've had my 7yr old working them on the white board. He had a blast with it. Has all 600 stars now and would probably play more. We need more imaginative games like this!
- mdc 14y ago
  When I bought the game, the descriptions of the two version were pretty clear that db+ was the same levels as db but with more bonus levels. Maybe they've updated that since you bought. I got db+ and was happy to see that the bonus levels progressed from symbols to letters/numbers so the last levels looked exactly like the algebra my kids will see in school. I think the game did an excellent job transitioning from the early levels that looked like many other kinds of puzzle/pattern games but evolved the symbols into more typical algebra equations in a way the kids barely notice but suddenly they're doing equations just like their math class. Very well designed IMO.
- sabat 14y ago
  Thanks for this report. My kid loves math, and so I bet he'll love this (he's six as well).
awakeasleep 14y ago
As an adult, I enjoyed this game. I had fun seeing how someone translated algebra into a game for children, and I also liked working simple algebra with pictures. I don't know if i recommend spending the 3 bucks on it unless you're looking for inspiration for your game.
- SamuelMulder 14y ago
  Since when is $3 for a couple of hours of entertainment (each if you have a family) a bad deal? I have a hard time understanding how our standards for how much things should cost has fallen so low.
coryl 14y ago
Someone please conduct of study (double blind, sample size 4, whatever) of kids that practiced algebra with dragonbox vs those that didn't, on their performance of an algebra test. Would be interesting to see if they perform better, and the impact of gamifying education.
- DanBC 14y ago
  Possibly "Unethical", and thus generations of children are condemned to learn with us not knowing if they're using optimal techniques or not. EDIT: For the silent downvoters - (http://www.badscience.net/2011/03/when-ethics-committees-kill/ http://www.badscience.net/2011/03/when-ethics-committees-kil...) > At present there is a bizarre paradox in medicine. When there is no evidence on which treatment is best, out of two available options, then you can choose one randomly at will, on a whim, in clinic, and be subject to no special safeguards. If, however, you decide to formally randomise in the same situation, and so generate new knowledge to improve treatments now and in the future, then suddenly a world of administrative obstruction opens up before you.
- pbhjpbhj 14y ago
  >the impact of gamifying education // I've read elsewhere that gamification tends to increase the desire to get "points" but reduces the desire to learn for it's own sake. The education is no longer considered it's own reward instead education is only worth while to score points. I guessed that was why they changed KhanAcademy to remove some of the points elements?? I leave it to someone else to give citations as it's my tea-time.
  - Someone 14y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivation#Intrinsic_and_extrinsic_motivation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivation#Intrinsic_and_extrin...
- Jach 14y ago
  Here's an overview of some studies in edutainment I found: http://www.itu.dk/~sen/papers/game-overview.pdf http://www.itu.dk/~sen/papers/game-overview.pdf There are a few more hits via Scholar. As one might expect, results are mixed, the experimental design is usually shoddy, and there are lots of variables unaccounted for. Anecdotally, I liked playing Number Munchers in my elementary school and I was in a high percentile of my class and district on all the standardized tests. My peers played it too, but they still struggled, especially later on in junior high and high school.
madlag 14y ago
My daughter is 5 years old, she finished the full game in roughly 2 x 1 hour. Of course she does not understand fully what's behind (I would say almost "fortunately" ;-) ), especially on divisions or multiplications, so it cannot replace the future explanations about what it means. That said, it shows the kind of game maths are about, and it dedramatize maths completely, and maybe that's the more important aspect of this game after all : maths are just a game, a complex one, but you have to enjoy them if you want to be good at them in the end. In the end, the game is very progressive, fun, she loves seeing the little monsters growing and it entices her to go on. The UI is not perfect, but it's already very good. For example, giving some time in the end to cleanup extra members would be cool instead of relying on the order you remove members. I can't help but think that playing complex games like this is one of the best training for yound minds !
jpxxx 14y ago
I've played this - its wonderful. Soothing, quiet, a little quirky. The + expansion pack is a total disappointment but the game itself is well done, cleverly designed, and genuine fun.
SamuelMulder 14y ago
I had just written about this yesterday when my 6 year old and 8 year old finished it: http://www.educationreimagined.org/2012/06/dragon-box/ http://www.educationreimagined.org/2012/06/dragon-box/. I had a couple of questions from the 6 year old, but my 8 year old son only asked for clarification once. When he finished the game, I asked if he realized he had been doing math and he said: "I didn't use any math to solve them". I think he meant calculation. This will lead to some interesting discussions... I would love to see games like this for more subjects.
Sakes 14y ago
My son will be 2 this month and he loves this game. He can only make it to about the 13th level before Daddy has to help, but wow, this is an amazing app. His favorite thing to do is "pop" the zeros (ie spirals)
wccrawford 14y ago
I bought this a couple weeks ago, and I was quite impressed. I don't have a young one to give it to, but I really liked how the rules were introduced. By the end, you really do have a pretty good grasp of algebra to get through it.
georgehaake 14y ago
We whipped through it with minimal assistance given to my 6 and 8 year old boys. It's good. Need's to go deeper and a bit longer in my opinion.
joelhooks 14y ago
The intense look of concentration on my 7 and 5 year old's faces as the play this is priceless. More of this.

164 points by RudeBaguette 14y ago

Start 14y ago

What I like particularly here is how every feedback and game design element contribute to the fused goal of learning-playing. Textbook game design elegance!

ctdonath 14y ago

My 4-year-old loves it. What can I say? She barely knows the alphabet yet she's learning algebra for fun!

VSerge 14y ago
Hey, I'd love to hear more about it, and I'm sure the founders of DragonBox makers We Want To Know would too, since they had kids twice this age in mind when they designed the game... reach me on sversille@flirtatiouslabs.com and I'll be more than happy to pass on your feedback directly to the founders.
- ctdonath 14y ago
  Pretty simple case. I walked her thru the first 2-3 levels, and she just kinda quietly disappeared into it. I then had to explain the "times one" and "x/x" rules, which only took a few seconds. Next thing I notice is she has completed at least 15 levels (if not two whole "worlds"; app may have been deleted & restored at some point). At last interaction she was puzzled that you couldn't make the swirling vortex (to wit: 0) disappear leaving an empty tray ("that's just how it is, you can't have an empty tray" "ok"). I'll keep feeding it to her and keep you appraised.
dr42 14y ago
Since by 4 most kids know the alphabet I wonder what the long term implications are of learning algebra first. Maybe letters won't feel like parts of words, but instead she'll look at them as problems to solve. I wonder what the big rush is with children, symbolic manipulation in a 4 year old's world has very little implication. Manipulating her environment through motor skils, developing ever more sophisticated interactions with other children, play etc, all seem to be much more useful. But anything that's fun is very likely good. I wonder how much of the fun is her reading back to you your enjoyment at seeing your offspring participate in algebra. The first rule of being a 4 year old is to please the parents. They, after all, provide everything.
- ehsanu1 14y ago
  Most people develop motor skills just fine, but are not that great with symbolic manipulation. It's not easy to predict the kinds of effects early exposure to this kind of stuff can have on a human being in the long term, but it may be significantly positive (and maybe even negative).
- donw 14y ago
  I realize that this is purely anecdotal, but may answer your question. My father got me playing around with programming when I was very young -- I think six or eight years old. Some of my first memories involve our VIC-20 computer. While a lot of what I did was just typing in simple programs from a book, I did some experimentation on my own, and it became pretty obvious how variables, loops, and the rest worked. When I hit school I was mathematically so far ahead of everybody else, not because I'm some kind of genius, but because I had already spent a lot of time unknowingly learning algebra. This was a disadvantage, because the school system wasn't built to cope with a kid that understood algebra before he had memorized the multiplication table. As an adult, however, I've enjoyed a pretty serious advantage when it comes to understanding abstract concepts, especially anything involving symbolic manipulation, and I think I can thank that VIC-20 BASIC manual from many years ago for it. I wouldn't be too worried about starting a kid out 'too soon', provided that other areas of the child's mental development aren't neglected in favor of developing mathematical skills.
  - heimidal 14y ago
    I had a similar experience. My father and grandfather introduced me to computers and programming at a very young age, and I ultimately taught myself algebra, geometry, and basic trigonometry by age 10. From fifth grade, I was bored out of my mind during math class. In sixth grade, my math teacher recognized my boredom to be a lack of challenge and decided she should do something about it. I was pulled into the vice principal's office at one point and asked to slow down my at-home learning because the teachers did not know what to do with me during class. Eventually, we settled on a solution: I became the equivalent of a teacher's aid for my middle school class and tutored other kids who were having difficulty. This instilled a love for teaching that I carry with me to this day. I don't think we should discourage children from learning at a fast pace as long as they appear to retain the information and it doesn't compromise other aspects of development. On the contrary, we need to find a way to help our education system cope with children learning things outside the classroom.

AndrewDucker 14y ago

Previously: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4105397 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4105397

RudeBaguette 14y ago
That was a great article by Wired! We decided to write about them because they are a partly French-based company, and our news site covers French startups, tech and innovation. Thanks for the link! -Liam @ The Rude Baguette
- AndrewDucker 14y ago
  Yes, wasn't trying to denigrate your work - just pointing to previous discussion people might find useful.
  - RudeBaguette 14y ago
    Oh definitely. Don't worry, no offense taken - just wanted to take the opportunity to promote us a bit ;-)

jamessun 14y ago

Reminds me of the "head fake" from Randy Pausch's Last Lecture video, http://www.cmu.edu/randyslecture/ http://www.cmu.edu/randyslecture/

mml 14y ago

My 6 year old finished the first version, so we went and bought dragonbox+. a bit disappointed to find the same set of problems, with some additional bonus stuff. Was expecting an an entirely new set, could have saved myself a few bucks and just got db+. that being said, an amazingly effective game. after she finishes the bonus problems, i'll be showing her how to work them on paper.

j05h 14y ago
I've had my 7yr old working them on the white board. He had a blast with it. Has all 600 stars now and would probably play more. We need more imaginative games like this!
mdc 14y ago
When I bought the game, the descriptions of the two version were pretty clear that db+ was the same levels as db but with more bonus levels. Maybe they've updated that since you bought. I got db+ and was happy to see that the bonus levels progressed from symbols to letters/numbers so the last levels looked exactly like the algebra my kids will see in school. I think the game did an excellent job transitioning from the early levels that looked like many other kinds of puzzle/pattern games but evolved the symbols into more typical algebra equations in a way the kids barely notice but suddenly they're doing equations just like their math class. Very well designed IMO.
sabat 14y ago
Thanks for this report. My kid loves math, and so I bet he'll love this (he's six as well).

awakeasleep 14y ago

As an adult, I enjoyed this game. I had fun seeing how someone translated algebra into a game for children, and I also liked working simple algebra with pictures. I don't know if i recommend spending the 3 bucks on it unless you're looking for inspiration for your game.

SamuelMulder 14y ago
Since when is $3 for a couple of hours of entertainment (each if you have a family) a bad deal? I have a hard time understanding how our standards for how much things should cost has fallen so low.

coryl 14y ago

Someone please conduct of study (double blind, sample size 4, whatever) of kids that practiced algebra with dragonbox vs those that didn't, on their performance of an algebra test. Would be interesting to see if they perform better, and the impact of gamifying education.

DanBC 14y ago
Possibly "Unethical", and thus generations of children are condemned to learn with us not knowing if they're using optimal techniques or not. EDIT: For the silent downvoters - (http://www.badscience.net/2011/03/when-ethics-committees-kill/ http://www.badscience.net/2011/03/when-ethics-committees-kil...) > At present there is a bizarre paradox in medicine. When there is no evidence on which treatment is best, out of two available options, then you can choose one randomly at will, on a whim, in clinic, and be subject to no special safeguards. If, however, you decide to formally randomise in the same situation, and so generate new knowledge to improve treatments now and in the future, then suddenly a world of administrative obstruction opens up before you.
pbhjpbhj 14y ago
>the impact of gamifying education // I've read elsewhere that gamification tends to increase the desire to get "points" but reduces the desire to learn for it's own sake. The education is no longer considered it's own reward instead education is only worth while to score points. I guessed that was why they changed KhanAcademy to remove some of the points elements?? I leave it to someone else to give citations as it's my tea-time.
- Someone 14y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivation#Intrinsic_and_extrinsic_motivation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivation#Intrinsic_and_extrin...
Jach 14y ago
Here's an overview of some studies in edutainment I found: http://www.itu.dk/~sen/papers/game-overview.pdf http://www.itu.dk/~sen/papers/game-overview.pdf There are a few more hits via Scholar. As one might expect, results are mixed, the experimental design is usually shoddy, and there are lots of variables unaccounted for. Anecdotally, I liked playing Number Munchers in my elementary school and I was in a high percentile of my class and district on all the standardized tests. My peers played it too, but they still struggled, especially later on in junior high and high school.

madlag 14y ago

My daughter is 5 years old, she finished the full game in roughly 2 x 1 hour. Of course she does not understand fully what's behind (I would say almost "fortunately" ;-) ), especially on divisions or multiplications, so it cannot replace the future explanations about what it means. That said, it shows the kind of game maths are about, and it dedramatize maths completely, and maybe that's the more important aspect of this game after all : maths are just a game, a complex one, but you have to enjoy them if you want to be good at them in the end. In the end, the game is very progressive, fun, she loves seeing the little monsters growing and it entices her to go on. The UI is not perfect, but it's already very good. For example, giving some time in the end to cleanup extra members would be cool instead of relying on the order you remove members. I can't help but think that playing complex games like this is one of the best training for yound minds !

jpxxx 14y ago

I've played this - its wonderful. Soothing, quiet, a little quirky. The + expansion pack is a total disappointment but the game itself is well done, cleverly designed, and genuine fun.

SamuelMulder 14y ago

I had just written about this yesterday when my 6 year old and 8 year old finished it: http://www.educationreimagined.org/2012/06/dragon-box/ http://www.educationreimagined.org/2012/06/dragon-box/. I had a couple of questions from the 6 year old, but my 8 year old son only asked for clarification once. When he finished the game, I asked if he realized he had been doing math and he said: "I didn't use any math to solve them". I think he meant calculation. This will lead to some interesting discussions... I would love to see games like this for more subjects.

Sakes 14y ago

My son will be 2 this month and he loves this game. He can only make it to about the 13th level before Daddy has to help, but wow, this is an amazing app. His favorite thing to do is "pop" the zeros (ie spirals)

wccrawford 14y ago

I bought this a couple weeks ago, and I was quite impressed. I don't have a young one to give it to, but I really liked how the rules were introduced. By the end, you really do have a pretty good grasp of algebra to get through it.

georgehaake 14y ago

We whipped through it with minimal assistance given to my 6 and 8 year old boys. It's good. Need's to go deeper and a bit longer in my opinion.

joelhooks 14y ago

The intense look of concentration on my 7 and 5 year old's faces as the play this is priceless. More of this.