6 ms·

Reports show some Canada euthanasia deaths driven by social reasons

92 points by impish9208 2y ago

giraffe_lady 2y ago
This thing turned into exactly the horror its critics were worried it would. Their concerns were so confidently dismissed from all sides, it was so easy to paint them as naive idealists or hardhearted religious weirdos or anything. They were right and now canada is at the forefront of a modern eugenics movement.
- 486sx33 2y ago
  [flagged]
- judahmeek 2y ago
  Why is assisted suicide programs the horror rather than the systemic effects that lead people with no terminal conditions to prefer death to possible living conditions? Without assisted suicide being requested, those people will just be overlooked & ignored. Instead of removing assisted suicide programs, we should consider them to be a societal feedback system regarding society's greatest failures.
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    It's not "rather than" and there are plenty of signals other than the deaths of disabled people.
    - judahmeek 2y ago
      Like I said, those signals seem to be a lot easier to ignore.
potato3732842 2y ago
> patients asked to be killed in part for social reasons such as isolation and fears of homelessness, Why is anyone surprised? Did the people who planned out this program never visit a psych ward? They're chock full of homeless people in varying degrees of "I'd rather die than go back to the streets/shelter". Sad but it's how it is.
Simulacra 2y ago
When I was a kid I worked in a grocery store. Every week we had the same people, sometimes 2-3 times a week. They talked to everyone, generally elderly, and seemed very lonely. I can understand facing the end of days painfully alone would push someone to choose their exit.
WorkerBee28474 2y ago
The government of Canada, when asked for funds to install a wheelchair ramp in the home of a veteran and Paralympian, famously offered to euthanize her instead - https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted-death-macaulay-1.6671721 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted...
- vlovich123 2y ago
  > In one instance, a Canadian Forces veteran claimed she had been offered Maid in response to a request for a wheelchair lift or ramp at her house. While a subsequent investigation found no record that assisted death was offered, Veterans Affairs discovered four cases in which Maid had been inappropriately suggested. The case manager was suspended and the incident was referred to the Royal Canadian Mounted police. Hospitals occasionally have angel of death doctors and nurses. Should we get rid of hospitals? There’s consistently a lack of any hard quantitative data about the harm the program causes but there are for the benefits. So for critics what’s left are anecdotal stories some of which are true some of which aren’t. > In another case, the family of Alan Nichols said he died by euthanasia, with hearing loss listed as the sole criterion. The family reported it to police and health authorities- but neither saw cause to investigate further. The RCMP told the family that Nichols “met the criteria” for assisted death. > But physicians who provide Maid caution that anecdotes of Canadians slipping through the cracks often ignore other critical details of their respective cases, which must include a “grievous and irremediable medical condition” and do not necessarily suggest a failure in the system. It’s important to remember that the families of people who die will still look for someone to blame. It’s a very human reaction. I know someone who blames the doctor for causing or accelerating her husband’s terminal cancer diagnosis as well as blaming him for telling the husband he had a terminal diagnosis in the first place (i.e. sapped his energy and strength). That’s not to say that there shouldn’t be adjustments to the program. But driving it through anecdotes instead of expertise and data is the wrong balance to strike. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/25/canada-assisted-dying-laws-in-spotlight-as-expansion-paused-again https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/25/canada-assiste...
  - ekianjo 2y ago
ffujdefvjg 2y ago
I think doctor assisted suicide is something we should have, but I've read some really messed up stuff about Canada's program. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/06/canada-legalized-medical-assisted-suicide-euthanasia-death-maid/673790/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/06/canada-... https://apnews.com/article/covid-science-health-toronto-7c631558a457188d2bd2b5cfd360a867 https://apnews.com/article/covid-science-health-toronto-7c63... One case (can't find it now, I think it may have been Alan Nichols') had someone claiming the doctor basically pressured them into it, implying they were taking up resources from other patients in Canada's health care system who could use it more.
- candiddevmike 2y ago
  At the end of the day in Canada, it's the individuals decision. And you can find tons of examples of folks making poor decisions for all kinds of situations, possibly due to the influence of others. Bodily autonomy should be a universal right. No one should be able to control what adults do with their bodies, IMO. It may lead to some dark places, but that's freedom I guess.
  - Teever 2y ago
    It's not freedom if a government is coercing people into making this desperate 'choice' by failing to provide a reasonable level of social support for the disabled that would prevent them from wanting to end their lives. People on welfare shouldn't be afraid that they're going to end up homeless because the government is implementing wildly out of control immigration policies and piss poor zoning and permitting that is wildly driving up the cost of living beyond what their non indexed to inflation welfare covers.
    - beedeebeedee 2y ago
      minor knit-pick: immigration policies are not driving the cost of living crisis
      - 2y ago
cannonpr 2y ago
The reality of our society is that many will meet their end alone and in poverty. Is it so different from parts of our history, where the old chose to take a long walk into the wilderness before the indignity of what follows? I’m not sure. We like to pretend our society is much richer and more capable than it is—that we can take care of everyone. Maybe we can, but I have my doubts. In cases where we fail, I think we should at least allow people the dignity of choosing their own exit. I don’t think it makes much difference whether their suffering comes from a disease of their body or a disease of society. In the short term, both can be inevitable and excruciating.
- jvanderbot 2y ago
  How is a long walk in the woods not exactly 'meet their end alone and in poverty', given the shame that must motivate that? Also was this common? What cultures endorsed and regularly practiced this?
  - cannonpr 2y ago
    Dehydration, exposure, and animals will take you a lot faster than begging on the streets and trying to cling on to life or becoming a burden to your village. As far as historical examples just study Inuit, Greek, Japanese, Norwegian, or Scythian practices on the matter.
    - svieira 2y ago
      True - we might also learn something from the Greek practice of exposure of infants and the Roman law regarding the rights of the pater familias. All three of them are examples of social failure to model the law of love in some manner.
      - cannonpr 2y ago
        It might teach you that reality is harsh and to face it.
SuperNinKenDo 2y ago
I was always very much in favour of opening up people's right to have control over the manner of their death, philosophically it seems inexcusable to me that we routinely keep people alive well beyond the point where they are not only in unbearable agony, but where their condition and/or medical interventions necessary to sustain them have sapped every last ounce of meaning from their lives, leaving them no option but to starve themselves to death or use some other grisly means to end their own suffering in isolation from their loved ones, when they could have a relatively painless death at the time, manner, and in the presence of people of their own choosing. I knew that this obviously came with risks, old people being pressured into it to ease the burden on, or speed inheritance for their children, people being pressured to take pressure off the medical system, etc. But I believed that trying to manage these risks was well worth the outcome that people might be able to die with a shred of dignity intact. I have to say that the Canadian experience has made me wonder whether I was wrong. Not in a strong rhetorical sense, but it has given me more doubt than I've ever entertained before. Are we socially or systemically incapable of managing those risks given a certain institutional configuration? I don't know. Happy for people to provide counter evidence for me if they like. I really don't know what to think about this anymore.
- candiddevmike 2y ago
  I tend to believe institutional abuse stems from psychopathic tendencies of individuals empowered by/within those institutions. I think the institutions are OK/worthwhile in a vacuum, but struggle to figure out how you avoid having, for lack of a better term, "bad folks" working within them. Review boards always seem to become lazy/apathetic overtime, and the patients often lack agency/collateral to be assertive.
- svieira 2y ago
  > Are we socially or systemically incapable of managing those risks given a certain institutional configuration? Empirically, Canada says "yes". There are other reasons (philosophical, moral, religious) that will also speak to the folly of what Canada and Belgium are leading the way towards, but we are not to speak of those things any more - so we're left with the "what if we try it and don't like it - can't we just roll it back?" of the early years of another "forward-looking" society from the recent past.
kredd 2y ago
I understand this is a hot-topic, and definitely an extremely nuanced issue, but as a person who knows people who took the MAID (Canadian euthanasia process) way out for a terminal illness, I will be forever grateful for it. It’s not uncommon to meet people whose elder relatives went through it as well, after years of constant pain up here. It definitely has shortcomings, but I genuinely hope the fixes will not result in rolling back the program completely.
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  I honestly think society would be very well served if people that were 85+ and in expensive hospice care with no quality of life decided they wanted to be euthanized instead to take the load off the medical system.
  - moralestapia 2y ago
    Some people would prefer to live as long as (medically) possible.
    - kazinator 2y ago
      Really? Like spending years 60 through 90 in an inescapable coma, for instance?
      - moralestapia 2y ago
        Yes.
  - sokoloff 2y ago
    So long as they decided, I totally agree. The danger comes from the pressures for it to not always be the patient’s true desire.
  - nverno 2y ago
    > society would be very well served A society that encourages people to off themselves because they are a burden doesn't sound nice to me. I think anyone should have the choice (legally) to end their life, but it would be gross if people actually started talking about how that would be good for everyone else.
s5300 2y ago
For those not actively following the situation, we’re well past the point where they offer and insist that you take the route of euthanasia before prescribing pain medicine in chronic painful conditions. Does not bode well for a generation of people hunched over their desks leading sedentary lifestyles.
Magi604 2y ago
With the internet, even the disabled and really old and infirm people can find ways to connect with others, alleviating (somewhat) the social isolation aspect of wanting to take a "long walk in the woods". My gut tells me that newer generations who basically are raised with internet access from day one will have little problem with this.
- maeil 2y ago
  There's an enormous range of disabilities and infirmity that make one unable to use the internet.
stonethrowaway 2y ago
Isn’t MAID something out of Soylent Green?
Eumenes 2y ago
[flagged]
- chx 2y ago
  First, we are about 41 million people and every year we welcome about half a million new people to freedom and safety. That's about 1.2%. About 300 000 of these come to us in the economic immigrant category who are decidedly able to take care of themselves or they wouldn't be to immigrate so. A bit more than 100 000 of them are coming as family, 70-75 000 come as refugee and about 10 000 come as Humanitarian / Compassionate other. I always thought a nation as rich as ours should welcome a lot more refugees. Source: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/news/notices/supplementary-immigration-levels-2024-2026.html https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/ne... Cheers from a not-so-recent Canadian immigrant: I landed on September 1, 2008 and became a citizen in 2016.
  - floren 2y ago
    1 million is about 2.5% of 39 million, not 1.3%
    - chx 2y ago
      That was a typo, I fixed it, you were too quick. It's 500 000. Check the source linked.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - Eumenes 2y ago
    > I always thought a nation as rich as ours should welcome a lot more refugees. Well, I think your fellow citizens are not happy with the levels - "Nearly six in 10 people now agree “there’s too much immigration to Canada,” according to the country’s longest-running survey on the topic by the Environics Institute. It’s the first time since 1998 that this view is held by a clear majority, and a stark shift from favorable opinion over the past two decades." https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/business/2024/10/17/support-for-immigration-in-canada-plunges-to-lowest-in-decades/ https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/business/2024/10/17/support-for-...
ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
@dang can I make a generalized comment on the state of Canada in this case?
ETH_start 2y ago
I think the widespread acceptance of the idea that assisted suicide is a legitimate option that people ought to consider is a society giving up on humanity. I think that there is never a case where there is no hope at all. Even in cases of the most severe illness, with all of the advancements in technology and innovation emerging seemingly every day, you cannot say there is no chance of a cure or a recovery. And even in a failed attempt at such a cure or recovery, there is much to be learned that can be shared with the rest of humanity. To just focus on avoiding suffering instead of striving to live is not consistent with the attitude that is conducive to the flourishing of life and the advancement of civilization. It is precisely humanity raging against the light — the endless quest for survival and flourishing — that has driven humanity thus far and that will always drive life in general. The assisted suicide philosophy, if you want to call it that, is fundamentally a deviation from the civilizational and biological imperative. All of this being said, a free society is one where people own their own body, meaning have a right to destroy themselves, with any drug or dangerous behavior, and to even commit suicide. So I cannot see an argument for prohibiting suicide or the provision of assistance in committing it. What's peculiar about countries that have legalized assisted suicide is the bevy of laws they impose to protect people from much milder forms of self-harm, like consumer protection laws that protect people from their own bad consumer decisions. You're not allowed to buy raw milk, but you can get a doctor's assistance in ending your life due to depression!
- LorenPechtel 2y ago
  You thinking there's never a case with no hope doesn't make it so.
  - ETH_start 2y ago
    There's always hope because we don't know everything. And there are cases where there is a lot of hope, even if the person themselves doesn't believe it, yet people are not being discouraged from suicide.
    - LorenPechtel 2y ago
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]
bryanlarsen 2y ago
MAID in Canada is like gun laws in the US. Most lawmakers and most citizens would prefer to have stricter gun laws and stricter MAID laws, but the supreme court interprets the constitution in a way to regularly strike down stricter laws.
neets 2y ago
You know you live in a "Brave New World" dystopia when...
0xbadc0de5 2y ago
There was a time when I was in favor of this idea - helping the terminally ill die with dignity seemed like a compassionate idea. Perhaps it still is. My problem with assisted suicide is not that it's giving terminally ill people a way out, it's the unintended consequences. We've already seen the slippery slope argument proven true time and time again. Young people, poor people, people with mental illness, veterans and the critically injured being funneled into assisted suicide. We've seen authority figures talk of counseling people with the wrong political opinions toward suicide. We've seen the profession attract "doctors" who take such glee in the act that in any other context they'd be viewed as serial killers. I'm sorry, but the number of unnecessary deaths that I'm okay with in order to alleviate the suffering of a few is zero.
- TrololoTroll 2y ago
  >the number of unnecessary deaths that I'm okay with in order to alleviate the suffering of a few is zero. "A few" is doing some serious heavy lifting here Most deaths aren't pleasant nor peaceful. And modern medicine can keep your body alive for a long, long while as you survive in pain even when there's no chance of things ever getting better
penguin_booze 2y ago
Adults must be left to make their own choices. When the time comes, I want to go in peace, at a time of my choosing (or imposed by fate--for example, if I were to lose my agency or independence due to a medical condition or an incident), and not rot and suffer until I'm "terminal". All through my life, I've been milked by way of taxes--and I'm OK with it. I've had a decent life; I've tried to actively minimize the damage I cause thanks to my existence. So, when the time comes (and I decide when it is), I don't want to be left begging for relief. I want to go in peace and with some dignity. I absolutely don't want to resort to violent methods or leave a mess for others to clean up. So, my ask is that a method is made available. If I need to sign up in advance--when I'm deemed to be of sound mind and body--so be it. But I need a way. I deserve it. This is not negotiable. Some related links: * https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1132623/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1132623/ * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian (I know he's a controversial figure)
h_tbob 2y ago
The technology to remove pain from humans has been invented via CRISPR. It is possible to live with "congenital insensitivity to pain", so we know it can be done safely. It has been demonstrated in lab animals. I think that this gene therapy should be given to patients instead!
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

92 points by impish9208 2y ago

This thing turned into exactly the horror its critics were worried it would. Their concerns were so confidently dismissed from all sides, it was so easy to paint them as naive idealists or hardhearted religious weirdos or anything. They were right and now canada is at the forefront of a modern eugenics movement.

486sx33 2y ago
[flagged]
judahmeek 2y ago
Why is assisted suicide programs the horror rather than the systemic effects that lead people with no terminal conditions to prefer death to possible living conditions? Without assisted suicide being requested, those people will just be overlooked & ignored. Instead of removing assisted suicide programs, we should consider them to be a societal feedback system regarding society's greatest failures.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  It's not "rather than" and there are plenty of signals other than the deaths of disabled people.
  - judahmeek 2y ago
    Like I said, those signals seem to be a lot easier to ignore.

potato3732842 2y ago

> patients asked to be killed in part for social reasons such as isolation and fears of homelessness, Why is anyone surprised? Did the people who planned out this program never visit a psych ward? They're chock full of homeless people in varying degrees of "I'd rather die than go back to the streets/shelter". Sad but it's how it is.

Simulacra 2y ago

When I was a kid I worked in a grocery store. Every week we had the same people, sometimes 2-3 times a week. They talked to everyone, generally elderly, and seemed very lonely. I can understand facing the end of days painfully alone would push someone to choose their exit.

WorkerBee28474 2y ago

The government of Canada, when asked for funds to install a wheelchair ramp in the home of a veteran and Paralympian, famously offered to euthanize her instead - https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted-death-macaulay-1.6671721 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted...

vlovich123 2y ago
> In one instance, a Canadian Forces veteran claimed she had been offered Maid in response to a request for a wheelchair lift or ramp at her house. While a subsequent investigation found no record that assisted death was offered, Veterans Affairs discovered four cases in which Maid had been inappropriately suggested. The case manager was suspended and the incident was referred to the Royal Canadian Mounted police. Hospitals occasionally have angel of death doctors and nurses. Should we get rid of hospitals? There’s consistently a lack of any hard quantitative data about the harm the program causes but there are for the benefits. So for critics what’s left are anecdotal stories some of which are true some of which aren’t. > In another case, the family of Alan Nichols said he died by euthanasia, with hearing loss listed as the sole criterion. The family reported it to police and health authorities- but neither saw cause to investigate further. The RCMP told the family that Nichols “met the criteria” for assisted death. > But physicians who provide Maid caution that anecdotes of Canadians slipping through the cracks often ignore other critical details of their respective cases, which must include a “grievous and irremediable medical condition” and do not necessarily suggest a failure in the system. It’s important to remember that the families of people who die will still look for someone to blame. It’s a very human reaction. I know someone who blames the doctor for causing or accelerating her husband’s terminal cancer diagnosis as well as blaming him for telling the husband he had a terminal diagnosis in the first place (i.e. sapped his energy and strength). That’s not to say that there shouldn’t be adjustments to the program. But driving it through anecdotes instead of expertise and data is the wrong balance to strike. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/25/canada-assisted-dying-laws-in-spotlight-as-expansion-paused-again https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/25/canada-assiste...
- ekianjo 2y ago

ffujdefvjg 2y ago

I think doctor assisted suicide is something we should have, but I've read some really messed up stuff about Canada's program. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/06/canada-legalized-medical-assisted-suicide-euthanasia-death-maid/673790/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/06/canada-... https://apnews.com/article/covid-science-health-toronto-7c631558a457188d2bd2b5cfd360a867 https://apnews.com/article/covid-science-health-toronto-7c63... One case (can't find it now, I think it may have been Alan Nichols') had someone claiming the doctor basically pressured them into it, implying they were taking up resources from other patients in Canada's health care system who could use it more.

candiddevmike 2y ago
At the end of the day in Canada, it's the individuals decision. And you can find tons of examples of folks making poor decisions for all kinds of situations, possibly due to the influence of others. Bodily autonomy should be a universal right. No one should be able to control what adults do with their bodies, IMO. It may lead to some dark places, but that's freedom I guess.
- Teever 2y ago
  It's not freedom if a government is coercing people into making this desperate 'choice' by failing to provide a reasonable level of social support for the disabled that would prevent them from wanting to end their lives. People on welfare shouldn't be afraid that they're going to end up homeless because the government is implementing wildly out of control immigration policies and piss poor zoning and permitting that is wildly driving up the cost of living beyond what their non indexed to inflation welfare covers.
  - beedeebeedee 2y ago
    minor knit-pick: immigration policies are not driving the cost of living crisis
    - 2y ago

cannonpr 2y ago

The reality of our society is that many will meet their end alone and in poverty. Is it so different from parts of our history, where the old chose to take a long walk into the wilderness before the indignity of what follows? I’m not sure. We like to pretend our society is much richer and more capable than it is—that we can take care of everyone. Maybe we can, but I have my doubts. In cases where we fail, I think we should at least allow people the dignity of choosing their own exit. I don’t think it makes much difference whether their suffering comes from a disease of their body or a disease of society. In the short term, both can be inevitable and excruciating.

jvanderbot 2y ago
How is a long walk in the woods not exactly 'meet their end alone and in poverty', given the shame that must motivate that? Also was this common? What cultures endorsed and regularly practiced this?
- cannonpr 2y ago
  Dehydration, exposure, and animals will take you a lot faster than begging on the streets and trying to cling on to life or becoming a burden to your village. As far as historical examples just study Inuit, Greek, Japanese, Norwegian, or Scythian practices on the matter.
  - svieira 2y ago
    True - we might also learn something from the Greek practice of exposure of infants and the Roman law regarding the rights of the pater familias. All three of them are examples of social failure to model the law of love in some manner.
    - cannonpr 2y ago
      It might teach you that reality is harsh and to face it.

SuperNinKenDo 2y ago

I was always very much in favour of opening up people's right to have control over the manner of their death, philosophically it seems inexcusable to me that we routinely keep people alive well beyond the point where they are not only in unbearable agony, but where their condition and/or medical interventions necessary to sustain them have sapped every last ounce of meaning from their lives, leaving them no option but to starve themselves to death or use some other grisly means to end their own suffering in isolation from their loved ones, when they could have a relatively painless death at the time, manner, and in the presence of people of their own choosing. I knew that this obviously came with risks, old people being pressured into it to ease the burden on, or speed inheritance for their children, people being pressured to take pressure off the medical system, etc. But I believed that trying to manage these risks was well worth the outcome that people might be able to die with a shred of dignity intact. I have to say that the Canadian experience has made me wonder whether I was wrong. Not in a strong rhetorical sense, but it has given me more doubt than I've ever entertained before. Are we socially or systemically incapable of managing those risks given a certain institutional configuration? I don't know. Happy for people to provide counter evidence for me if they like. I really don't know what to think about this anymore.

candiddevmike 2y ago
I tend to believe institutional abuse stems from psychopathic tendencies of individuals empowered by/within those institutions. I think the institutions are OK/worthwhile in a vacuum, but struggle to figure out how you avoid having, for lack of a better term, "bad folks" working within them. Review boards always seem to become lazy/apathetic overtime, and the patients often lack agency/collateral to be assertive.
svieira 2y ago
> Are we socially or systemically incapable of managing those risks given a certain institutional configuration? Empirically, Canada says "yes". There are other reasons (philosophical, moral, religious) that will also speak to the folly of what Canada and Belgium are leading the way towards, but we are not to speak of those things any more - so we're left with the "what if we try it and don't like it - can't we just roll it back?" of the early years of another "forward-looking" society from the recent past.

kredd 2y ago

I understand this is a hot-topic, and definitely an extremely nuanced issue, but as a person who knows people who took the MAID (Canadian euthanasia process) way out for a terminal illness, I will be forever grateful for it. It’s not uncommon to meet people whose elder relatives went through it as well, after years of constant pain up here. It definitely has shortcomings, but I genuinely hope the fixes will not result in rolling back the program completely.

dyauspitr 2y ago
I honestly think society would be very well served if people that were 85+ and in expensive hospice care with no quality of life decided they wanted to be euthanized instead to take the load off the medical system.
- moralestapia 2y ago
  Some people would prefer to live as long as (medically) possible.
  - kazinator 2y ago
    Really? Like spending years 60 through 90 in an inescapable coma, for instance?
    - moralestapia 2y ago
      Yes.
- sokoloff 2y ago
  So long as they decided, I totally agree. The danger comes from the pressures for it to not always be the patient’s true desire.
- nverno 2y ago
  > society would be very well served A society that encourages people to off themselves because they are a burden doesn't sound nice to me. I think anyone should have the choice (legally) to end their life, but it would be gross if people actually started talking about how that would be good for everyone else.

s5300 2y ago

For those not actively following the situation, we’re well past the point where they offer and insist that you take the route of euthanasia before prescribing pain medicine in chronic painful conditions. Does not bode well for a generation of people hunched over their desks leading sedentary lifestyles.

Magi604 2y ago

With the internet, even the disabled and really old and infirm people can find ways to connect with others, alleviating (somewhat) the social isolation aspect of wanting to take a "long walk in the woods". My gut tells me that newer generations who basically are raised with internet access from day one will have little problem with this.

maeil 2y ago
There's an enormous range of disabilities and infirmity that make one unable to use the internet.

stonethrowaway 2y ago

Isn’t MAID something out of Soylent Green?

Eumenes 2y ago

[flagged]

chx 2y ago
First, we are about 41 million people and every year we welcome about half a million new people to freedom and safety. That's about 1.2%. About 300 000 of these come to us in the economic immigrant category who are decidedly able to take care of themselves or they wouldn't be to immigrate so. A bit more than 100 000 of them are coming as family, 70-75 000 come as refugee and about 10 000 come as Humanitarian / Compassionate other. I always thought a nation as rich as ours should welcome a lot more refugees. Source: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/news/notices/supplementary-immigration-levels-2024-2026.html https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/ne... Cheers from a not-so-recent Canadian immigrant: I landed on September 1, 2008 and became a citizen in 2016.
- floren 2y ago
  1 million is about 2.5% of 39 million, not 1.3%
  - chx 2y ago
    That was a typo, I fixed it, you were too quick. It's 500 000. Check the source linked.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- Eumenes 2y ago
  > I always thought a nation as rich as ours should welcome a lot more refugees. Well, I think your fellow citizens are not happy with the levels - "Nearly six in 10 people now agree “there’s too much immigration to Canada,” according to the country’s longest-running survey on the topic by the Environics Institute. It’s the first time since 1998 that this view is held by a clear majority, and a stark shift from favorable opinion over the past two decades." https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/business/2024/10/17/support-for-immigration-in-canada-plunges-to-lowest-in-decades/ https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/business/2024/10/17/support-for-...

ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago

@dang can I make a generalized comment on the state of Canada in this case?

ETH_start 2y ago

I think the widespread acceptance of the idea that assisted suicide is a legitimate option that people ought to consider is a society giving up on humanity. I think that there is never a case where there is no hope at all. Even in cases of the most severe illness, with all of the advancements in technology and innovation emerging seemingly every day, you cannot say there is no chance of a cure or a recovery. And even in a failed attempt at such a cure or recovery, there is much to be learned that can be shared with the rest of humanity. To just focus on avoiding suffering instead of striving to live is not consistent with the attitude that is conducive to the flourishing of life and the advancement of civilization. It is precisely humanity raging against the light — the endless quest for survival and flourishing — that has driven humanity thus far and that will always drive life in general. The assisted suicide philosophy, if you want to call it that, is fundamentally a deviation from the civilizational and biological imperative. All of this being said, a free society is one where people own their own body, meaning have a right to destroy themselves, with any drug or dangerous behavior, and to even commit suicide. So I cannot see an argument for prohibiting suicide or the provision of assistance in committing it. What's peculiar about countries that have legalized assisted suicide is the bevy of laws they impose to protect people from much milder forms of self-harm, like consumer protection laws that protect people from their own bad consumer decisions. You're not allowed to buy raw milk, but you can get a doctor's assistance in ending your life due to depression!

LorenPechtel 2y ago
You thinking there's never a case with no hope doesn't make it so.
- ETH_start 2y ago
  There's always hope because we don't know everything. And there are cases where there is a lot of hope, even if the person themselves doesn't believe it, yet people are not being discouraged from suicide.
  - LorenPechtel 2y ago

aaron695 2y ago

[dead]

bryanlarsen 2y ago

MAID in Canada is like gun laws in the US. Most lawmakers and most citizens would prefer to have stricter gun laws and stricter MAID laws, but the supreme court interprets the constitution in a way to regularly strike down stricter laws.

neets 2y ago

You know you live in a "Brave New World" dystopia when...

0xbadc0de5 2y ago

There was a time when I was in favor of this idea - helping the terminally ill die with dignity seemed like a compassionate idea. Perhaps it still is. My problem with assisted suicide is not that it's giving terminally ill people a way out, it's the unintended consequences. We've already seen the slippery slope argument proven true time and time again. Young people, poor people, people with mental illness, veterans and the critically injured being funneled into assisted suicide. We've seen authority figures talk of counseling people with the wrong political opinions toward suicide. We've seen the profession attract "doctors" who take such glee in the act that in any other context they'd be viewed as serial killers. I'm sorry, but the number of unnecessary deaths that I'm okay with in order to alleviate the suffering of a few is zero.

TrololoTroll 2y ago
>the number of unnecessary deaths that I'm okay with in order to alleviate the suffering of a few is zero. "A few" is doing some serious heavy lifting here Most deaths aren't pleasant nor peaceful. And modern medicine can keep your body alive for a long, long while as you survive in pain even when there's no chance of things ever getting better

penguin_booze 2y ago

Adults must be left to make their own choices. When the time comes, I want to go in peace, at a time of my choosing (or imposed by fate--for example, if I were to lose my agency or independence due to a medical condition or an incident), and not rot and suffer until I'm "terminal". All through my life, I've been milked by way of taxes--and I'm OK with it. I've had a decent life; I've tried to actively minimize the damage I cause thanks to my existence. So, when the time comes (and I decide when it is), I don't want to be left begging for relief. I want to go in peace and with some dignity. I absolutely don't want to resort to violent methods or leave a mess for others to clean up. So, my ask is that a method is made available. If I need to sign up in advance--when I'm deemed to be of sound mind and body--so be it. But I need a way. I deserve it. This is not negotiable. Some related links: * https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1132623/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1132623/ * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian (I know he's a controversial figure)

h_tbob 2y ago

The technology to remove pain from humans has been invented via CRISPR. It is possible to live with "congenital insensitivity to pain", so we know it can be done safely. It has been demonstrated in lab animals. I think that this gene therapy should be given to patients instead!

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]