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> If you disagree, I would argue you have a very sad view of the world, where truth and cooperation are inferior to lies and manipulation. You're holding every

> If you disagree, I would argue you have a very sad view of the world, where truth and cooperation are inferior to lies and manipulation. You're holding everyone to a very simple, very binary view with this. It's easy to look around and see many untrustworthy players in very very long running games whose success lasts most of their own lives and often even through their legacy. That doesn't mean that "lies and manipulation" trump "truth and cooperation" in some absolute sense, though. It just means that significant long-running games are almost always very multi-faceted and the roads that run through them involve many many more factors than those. Those of us who feel most natural being "truthful and cooperative" can find great success ourselves while obeying our sense of integrity, but we should be careful about underestimating those who play differently. They're not guaranteed to lose either.

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cynicalpeace 2y ago
I didn't say they're guaranteed to lose. I said I'd put my money on it. If you put your money otherwise, that's a sad view of the world.
- deleted 2y ago
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- fastball 2y ago
  This sounds very Effective Altruism. "If you don't put your money towards the things with the most positive impact you're a bad/sad person".
  - cynicalpeace 2y ago
    I didn't say positive impact. What I'm saying is you either think Sam's conniving will work out for him, or it won't. If you think it will, that's very cynical.
    - throwaway314155 2y ago
      Despite what you may think, it isn't inherently illogical to be cynical. In fact, sometimes it's the appropriate point of view. Just the same, viewing the world optimistically is sometimes also viewed as naive. In any case, the real issue with your logic is in thinking that an individual's personal views on the morality of a situation are correlated with the actual, potentially harsh, reality of that situation. There is rarely ever such a correlation and when it happens, it is likely a coincidence. Is Sam Altman untrustworthy? Of course, he seems like a snake. That doesn't mean he will fail. And predicting the reality of the thing (that awful people sometimes succeed in this world) does not make someone inherently wrong or negative or even cynical - it just makes them a realist.
pfisherman 2y ago
The etymological origin of “credit” comes from Latin for believe or trust. Credibility is everything in business, and you can put a dollar cost on it. While banditry can work out in the short term; it pretty much always ends up the same way. There aren’t a lot of old gangsters walking around.
- cynicalpeace 2y ago
  The entire world economy is based on trust. You worked for 8 hours today because you trust you'll get money in a week that you trust can be used to buy toilet paper at Costco. There are actually fascinating theories that the origin of money is not as a means of replacing a barter system, but rather as a way of keeping track who owed favors to each other. IOUs, so to speak.
  - johnisgood 2y ago
    > as a way of keeping track who owed favors to each other I do not see how that is possible considering I have no clue who the second last owner of a cash was before me, most of the time.
    - bobthepanda 2y ago
      the origin of money, vs what money is now, are not necessarily one and the same.
      - johnisgood 2y ago
        I do not disagree. Modern cash systems involve anonymity and do not inherently keep track of the ownership history of money (as I noted). This anonymity is a fundamental feature of cash and many forms of currency today. Sure, early forms of currency might have functioned in small, close-knit communities and in such contexts, people were more likely to know each other’s social debts and relationships. My point about cash being anonymous was meant to highlight how modern currency differs from the historical concept of money as a social ledger. This contrast is important because it shows how much the role of money has evolved.

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cynicalpeace 2y ago

I didn't say they're guaranteed to lose. I said I'd put my money on it. If you put your money otherwise, that's a sad view of the world.

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fastball 2y ago
This sounds very Effective Altruism. "If you don't put your money towards the things with the most positive impact you're a bad/sad person".
- cynicalpeace 2y ago
  I didn't say positive impact. What I'm saying is you either think Sam's conniving will work out for him, or it won't. If you think it will, that's very cynical.
  - throwaway314155 2y ago
    Despite what you may think, it isn't inherently illogical to be cynical. In fact, sometimes it's the appropriate point of view. Just the same, viewing the world optimistically is sometimes also viewed as naive. In any case, the real issue with your logic is in thinking that an individual's personal views on the morality of a situation are correlated with the actual, potentially harsh, reality of that situation. There is rarely ever such a correlation and when it happens, it is likely a coincidence. Is Sam Altman untrustworthy? Of course, he seems like a snake. That doesn't mean he will fail. And predicting the reality of the thing (that awful people sometimes succeed in this world) does not make someone inherently wrong or negative or even cynical - it just makes them a realist.

pfisherman 2y ago

The etymological origin of “credit” comes from Latin for believe or trust. Credibility is everything in business, and you can put a dollar cost on it. While banditry can work out in the short term; it pretty much always ends up the same way. There aren’t a lot of old gangsters walking around.

cynicalpeace 2y ago
The entire world economy is based on trust. You worked for 8 hours today because you trust you'll get money in a week that you trust can be used to buy toilet paper at Costco. There are actually fascinating theories that the origin of money is not as a means of replacing a barter system, but rather as a way of keeping track who owed favors to each other. IOUs, so to speak.
- johnisgood 2y ago
  > as a way of keeping track who owed favors to each other I do not see how that is possible considering I have no clue who the second last owner of a cash was before me, most of the time.
  - bobthepanda 2y ago
    the origin of money, vs what money is now, are not necessarily one and the same.
    - johnisgood 2y ago
      I do not disagree. Modern cash systems involve anonymity and do not inherently keep track of the ownership history of money (as I noted). This anonymity is a fundamental feature of cash and many forms of currency today. Sure, early forms of currency might have functioned in small, close-knit communities and in such contexts, people were more likely to know each other’s social debts and relationships. My point about cash being anonymous was meant to highlight how modern currency differs from the historical concept of money as a social ledger. This contrast is important because it shows how much the role of money has evolved.