4 ms·

When you say "it's a modern cultural problem", do you mean, as most people appear to mean, "This is not a social problem worth solving, these people deserve it

by mapt 2y ago

When you say "it's a modern cultural problem", do you mean, as most people appear to mean, "This is not a social problem worth solving, these people deserve it for their moral failings, and their death is a useful example for the rest of us"? Most people don't actually say it out loud, but this is all directly implied by the "personal responsibility" retort that is wildly popular among people who don't actually suffer from a given malady, in response to attempts to address it collectively.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
not OP, but I agree it is modern cultural problem and a personal responsibility problem. However, I dont agree with your supposition following from that. I think that obesity is a symptom of a cultural problem worth solving, not an individual moral failing, and there are better ways to learn than death. There are lots of things in our culture that result in physical and mental sickness. It is good to treat the symptoms, but we should also pay attention to the cause. Culture operates both at the individual and collective level. One can not exist without the other. One can not change without changing the other. Personal beliefs and actions shape collective culture, and culture shapes personal beliefs.
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  Biologically, obesity could be seen as a win. It is the natural consequence of the human body's strategy for finding enough sustenance to drive that big brain over an evolutionary timeline that was mostly dominated by scarcity. We like to call it a disease because we want to live longer. But all of the consequences happen after most humans have procreated, so there is no evolutionary pressure[0] to change it. [0] Yes, I understand evolution isn't quite that simple
  - nradov 2y ago
    Obesity reduces fertility for both sexes. This is one of the factors behind declining birth rates.
    - consteval 2y ago
      Our bodies and responses were "designed" for such a system where obesity is impossible. The mechanisms that power obesity are vital for the survival of the human race. The agriculture revolution only happened 10,000 years ago. This is all very new to us.
      - nradov 2y ago
        The real agriculture revolution only started in 1913 with the invention of the Haber-Bosch process for manufacturing fertilizer from fossil fuels. That's what really enabled excessive carbohydrate consumption for common people. Before that, humans were barely scraping by and it was still common for poor people to starve to death, even in relatively advanced countries.
- mapt 2y ago
  Responding to efforts to cure a social ill by calling it a personal responsibility problem is, in context, implying that we should not be exerting those efforts, that this is not our problem, this is their problem, that humans should just be better, why can't you just be better you piece of shit? It is a disinvitation to solutions, and the rest follows naturally from that. I think a lot of people are using this as a thought-terminating cliche without actually considering how hostile the stance is.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    it seems like a lot of projection and extrapolation. A widespread lack of individual agency and self-determination is both a cultural problem and should be viewed as a call to action. The question of why this is the case and what we can do about it is the interesting part. People do have personal problems. Ignoring that is like blinding one eye before assessing the situation
    - mapt 2y ago
      Every problem is personal for the person facing it. When one looks at attempts to cure AIDs, and offers a contextual response of "This is a personal problem" or "This is a matter of personal responsibility", the only meaning of that which is legible is that we shouldn't collectively be trying to cure AIDs, that this isn't our business, and low-key, that sufferers deserve it for their behavior. That was practically the consensus social position forty years ago. We didn't have an obesity crisis. Now we have an obesity crisis. Did the human race just become less responsible? Or are they enduring a new, situational, societal-level problem that affects many people collectively based on the socioeconomic & cultural conditions they were born into? Conditions that didn't exist 20,000 or 1,000 or even 60 years ago. This is a longstanding conservative trope that excuses us from dealing with any and all social problems because we don't owe anything to each other. It is a declaration of social atomization. See also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp4FGAv2gks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp4FGAv2gks
- consteval 2y ago
  > personal responsibility problem The implication here is that somewhere along the way in the last 50-ish years people just lost the ability to have discipline. All at once. Across the entire globe. Does that sound reasonable to you? Keep in mind 50 years ago almost everyone smoked. Personal responsibility has not changed. I don't understand how people can say this when the problem is to such a widespread degree.

by mapt 2y ago

s1artibartfast 2y ago

not OP, but I agree it is modern cultural problem and a personal responsibility problem. However, I dont agree with your supposition following from that. I think that obesity is a symptom of a cultural problem worth solving, not an individual moral failing, and there are better ways to learn than death. There are lots of things in our culture that result in physical and mental sickness. It is good to treat the symptoms, but we should also pay attention to the cause. Culture operates both at the individual and collective level. One can not exist without the other. One can not change without changing the other. Personal beliefs and actions shape collective culture, and culture shapes personal beliefs.

rootusrootus 2y ago
Biologically, obesity could be seen as a win. It is the natural consequence of the human body's strategy for finding enough sustenance to drive that big brain over an evolutionary timeline that was mostly dominated by scarcity. We like to call it a disease because we want to live longer. But all of the consequences happen after most humans have procreated, so there is no evolutionary pressure[0] to change it. [0] Yes, I understand evolution isn't quite that simple
- nradov 2y ago
  Obesity reduces fertility for both sexes. This is one of the factors behind declining birth rates.
  - consteval 2y ago
    Our bodies and responses were "designed" for such a system where obesity is impossible. The mechanisms that power obesity are vital for the survival of the human race. The agriculture revolution only happened 10,000 years ago. This is all very new to us.
    - nradov 2y ago
      The real agriculture revolution only started in 1913 with the invention of the Haber-Bosch process for manufacturing fertilizer from fossil fuels. That's what really enabled excessive carbohydrate consumption for common people. Before that, humans were barely scraping by and it was still common for poor people to starve to death, even in relatively advanced countries.
mapt 2y ago
Responding to efforts to cure a social ill by calling it a personal responsibility problem is, in context, implying that we should not be exerting those efforts, that this is not our problem, this is their problem, that humans should just be better, why can't you just be better you piece of shit? It is a disinvitation to solutions, and the rest follows naturally from that. I think a lot of people are using this as a thought-terminating cliche without actually considering how hostile the stance is.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  it seems like a lot of projection and extrapolation. A widespread lack of individual agency and self-determination is both a cultural problem and should be viewed as a call to action. The question of why this is the case and what we can do about it is the interesting part. People do have personal problems. Ignoring that is like blinding one eye before assessing the situation
  - mapt 2y ago
    Every problem is personal for the person facing it. When one looks at attempts to cure AIDs, and offers a contextual response of "This is a personal problem" or "This is a matter of personal responsibility", the only meaning of that which is legible is that we shouldn't collectively be trying to cure AIDs, that this isn't our business, and low-key, that sufferers deserve it for their behavior. That was practically the consensus social position forty years ago. We didn't have an obesity crisis. Now we have an obesity crisis. Did the human race just become less responsible? Or are they enduring a new, situational, societal-level problem that affects many people collectively based on the socioeconomic & cultural conditions they were born into? Conditions that didn't exist 20,000 or 1,000 or even 60 years ago. This is a longstanding conservative trope that excuses us from dealing with any and all social problems because we don't owe anything to each other. It is a declaration of social atomization. See also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp4FGAv2gks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp4FGAv2gks
consteval 2y ago
> personal responsibility problem The implication here is that somewhere along the way in the last 50-ish years people just lost the ability to have discipline. All at once. Across the entire globe. Does that sound reasonable to you? Keep in mind 50 years ago almost everyone smoked. Personal responsibility has not changed. I don't understand how people can say this when the problem is to such a widespread degree.