4 ms·

100% agree, it's a modern cultural problem. We look for drug and technology solutions because "doing the right thing" is hard.

baq 2y ago
GLP-1 drugs don’t make you burn fat, they make you eat healthy (or healthier, at least). That’s why they’re so amazingly effective and the reason why is even more amazing - they hack your reward subsystem.
- nradov 2y ago
  GLP-1 drugs seem to increase resting heart rate. I suspect that also increases total daily energy expenditure, although I don't know that we have reliable data on that yet.
  - rootusrootus 2y ago
    That can happen, but is not universal. My resting heart rate has been dropping (probably in lock step with my weight), it has not risen one bit since I started taking tirzepatide. And my heart rate variability has been trending up, not down. Why do you suspect it changes energy expenditure?
mapt 2y ago
When you say "it's a modern cultural problem", do you mean, as most people appear to mean, "This is not a social problem worth solving, these people deserve it for their moral failings, and their death is a useful example for the rest of us"? Most people don't actually say it out loud, but this is all directly implied by the "personal responsibility" retort that is wildly popular among people who don't actually suffer from a given malady, in response to attempts to address it collectively.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  not OP, but I agree it is modern cultural problem and a personal responsibility problem. However, I dont agree with your supposition following from that. I think that obesity is a symptom of a cultural problem worth solving, not an individual moral failing, and there are better ways to learn than death. There are lots of things in our culture that result in physical and mental sickness. It is good to treat the symptoms, but we should also pay attention to the cause. Culture operates both at the individual and collective level. One can not exist without the other. One can not change without changing the other. Personal beliefs and actions shape collective culture, and culture shapes personal beliefs.
  - rootusrootus 2y ago
    Biologically, obesity could be seen as a win. It is the natural consequence of the human body's strategy for finding enough sustenance to drive that big brain over an evolutionary timeline that was mostly dominated by scarcity. We like to call it a disease because we want to live longer. But all of the consequences happen after most humans have procreated, so there is no evolutionary pressure[0] to change it. [0] Yes, I understand evolution isn't quite that simple
    - nradov 2y ago
      Obesity reduces fertility for both sexes. This is one of the factors behind declining birth rates.
      - consteval 2y ago
        Our bodies and responses were "designed" for such a system where obesity is impossible. The mechanisms that power obesity are vital for the survival of the human race. The agriculture revolution only happened 10,000 years ago. This is all very new to us.
        nradov 2y ago
        The real agriculture revolution only started in 1913 with the invention of the Haber-Bosch process for manufacturing fertilizer from fossil fuels. That's what really enabled excessive carbohydrate consumption for common people. Before that, humans were barely scraping by and it was still common for poor people to starve to death, even in relatively advanced countries.
soganess 2y ago
Friendly fwiw: Your parent clearly does not think it is a "modern cultural problem": > "when _you_ believe the solution is trivial" (emphasis mine) They were trying to start a polite dialogue with you by displaying that they could see things from your purview. Probably with the hope of building common-ground that would, in turn, invite you to maybe see the other side: > "But you could also consider..." Perhaps reconsider their olive branch?
Spooky23 2y ago
We have government policy that reshaped American agriculture 70 years ago to lower the cost curve for food. That was accomplished by industrialization of food production. That drives Americans to eat the way they do. Travel to Italy or France and the difference is shocking — both in terms of the look of the people and the quality of the food.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  There are also very relevant cultural differences between the French and Americans. It is not just the food on the shelves, or price, but healthy attitudes and behavior around eating and life in general. The average American is 50% richer than the average French, and have access to everything they need to eat like one if they choose. In fact, much of the difference is the French choosing not to eat - both in terms of frequency and quantity. Healthy food attitudes can absolutely be learned and taught. If you see a 200lb 10 year old, the difference between them and their classmates isn't the contents of the supermarket. Its what is going on at home, the actions of their parents, and what they are learning. I say this not to blame or pass judgement, but to demonstrate that induvial behavior and actions matter.

baq 2y ago

GLP-1 drugs don’t make you burn fat, they make you eat healthy (or healthier, at least). That’s why they’re so amazingly effective and the reason why is even more amazing - they hack your reward subsystem.

nradov 2y ago
GLP-1 drugs seem to increase resting heart rate. I suspect that also increases total daily energy expenditure, although I don't know that we have reliable data on that yet.
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  That can happen, but is not universal. My resting heart rate has been dropping (probably in lock step with my weight), it has not risen one bit since I started taking tirzepatide. And my heart rate variability has been trending up, not down. Why do you suspect it changes energy expenditure?

mapt 2y ago

When you say "it's a modern cultural problem", do you mean, as most people appear to mean, "This is not a social problem worth solving, these people deserve it for their moral failings, and their death is a useful example for the rest of us"? Most people don't actually say it out loud, but this is all directly implied by the "personal responsibility" retort that is wildly popular among people who don't actually suffer from a given malady, in response to attempts to address it collectively.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
not OP, but I agree it is modern cultural problem and a personal responsibility problem. However, I dont agree with your supposition following from that. I think that obesity is a symptom of a cultural problem worth solving, not an individual moral failing, and there are better ways to learn than death. There are lots of things in our culture that result in physical and mental sickness. It is good to treat the symptoms, but we should also pay attention to the cause. Culture operates both at the individual and collective level. One can not exist without the other. One can not change without changing the other. Personal beliefs and actions shape collective culture, and culture shapes personal beliefs.
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  Biologically, obesity could be seen as a win. It is the natural consequence of the human body's strategy for finding enough sustenance to drive that big brain over an evolutionary timeline that was mostly dominated by scarcity. We like to call it a disease because we want to live longer. But all of the consequences happen after most humans have procreated, so there is no evolutionary pressure[0] to change it. [0] Yes, I understand evolution isn't quite that simple
  - nradov 2y ago
    Obesity reduces fertility for both sexes. This is one of the factors behind declining birth rates.
    - consteval 2y ago
      Our bodies and responses were "designed" for such a system where obesity is impossible. The mechanisms that power obesity are vital for the survival of the human race. The agriculture revolution only happened 10,000 years ago. This is all very new to us.
      - nradov 2y ago
        The real agriculture revolution only started in 1913 with the invention of the Haber-Bosch process for manufacturing fertilizer from fossil fuels. That's what really enabled excessive carbohydrate consumption for common people. Before that, humans were barely scraping by and it was still common for poor people to starve to death, even in relatively advanced countries.

soganess 2y ago

Friendly fwiw: Your parent clearly does not think it is a "modern cultural problem": > "when _you_ believe the solution is trivial" (emphasis mine) They were trying to start a polite dialogue with you by displaying that they could see things from your purview. Probably with the hope of building common-ground that would, in turn, invite you to maybe see the other side: > "But you could also consider..." Perhaps reconsider their olive branch?

Spooky23 2y ago

We have government policy that reshaped American agriculture 70 years ago to lower the cost curve for food. That was accomplished by industrialization of food production. That drives Americans to eat the way they do. Travel to Italy or France and the difference is shocking — both in terms of the look of the people and the quality of the food.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
There are also very relevant cultural differences between the French and Americans. It is not just the food on the shelves, or price, but healthy attitudes and behavior around eating and life in general. The average American is 50% richer than the average French, and have access to everything they need to eat like one if they choose. In fact, much of the difference is the French choosing not to eat - both in terms of frequency and quantity. Healthy food attitudes can absolutely be learned and taught. If you see a 200lb 10 year old, the difference between them and their classmates isn't the contents of the supermarket. Its what is going on at home, the actions of their parents, and what they are learning. I say this not to blame or pass judgement, but to demonstrate that induvial behavior and actions matter.