11 ms·

Is Matt Mullenweg defending WordPress or sabotaging it?

bityard 2y ago
Last year, I was contacted out of the blue by an Automattic recruiter who encouraged me to apply for an engineering position there. I was intrigued for a few minutes because I recognized the company and knew they did some really terrific open source work once upon a time. But then I regained my senses... I don't have any kind of reputation or extensive proof of accomplishments or character outside of my resume and real-life social circle. Any company that would cold-contact someone like me is 100% dealing with either abnormally low offer acceptance or abnormally high employee turnover, or both. I also remember reading (on Reddit and such) from previous employees that the CEO was best described as "mercurial." There were enough bright waving red flags that I did not bother to respond.
- caekislove 2y ago
  Heh, like that old joke "I'd never join a club that would have me as a member"!
  - vlod 2y ago
    Groucho Marx for those that are interested.
  - bityard 2y ago
    Hah, I was literally thinking of that as I was writing the comment.
- simanyay 2y ago
  If it was a recruiter encouraging you to apply, chances are it was a mass campaign to fill the recruiting pipeline. In my experience that’s how recruiters work and the only thing it indicates is that the company has open roles to fill.
  - abirch 2y ago
    Plus the recruiter adds your name to their file and tells future employers that they have x number of great programmers from which to select. You just ++x for the recruiter
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  Automattic's recruitment process is also... "involved": > Write a thoughtful cover letter, and thorough responses to application questions. I've seen these kind of application questions before. These are not from Automattic but comparable to what I saw from them: "Describe in detail, including the metrics, KPIs and reasoning you used when you launched your previous 0 to 1 product to ensure a good fit to your customer", "Describe in detail the biggest challenge and obstacles you've overcome getting a product to market, including both the technical aspects and business/people components, and be specific about the role you played in making sure these were surmountable" and so on. > a Slack interview This is actually novel and kinda cool, especially when it's one of the primary ways you might communicate day-to-day. > 30-60 minutes Zoom interview > Code Test for engineers - We expect the code test will take no more than a couple of days, and this is done asynchronously over the course of approximately a week That's starting to add up. > Trial "can last anywhere from a few hours to a few weeks. Most candidates complete the trial while working full-time and we know life is busy" Better check your existing employment contract about moonlighting / outside employment (I am not saying I agree with such restrictions, but given how common they are, maybe this should be called out a little more....)
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    Sounds like canonical.
    - duskwuff 2y ago
      It's not quite as bad. At least A8C doesn't ask you to talk about what grades you got in high school.
      - jasdfwasdf 2y ago
        Canonical accepts my PR's but won't hire because I didn't graduate high school :-)
        FireBeyond 2y ago
- rurp 2y ago
  There's a good chance the recruiter was just spamming anyone and everyone they could find. At least 50% of the cold recruiter messages I've gotten have been for roles that had nothing to do with my background.
- deleted 2y ago
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- neilv 2y ago
  Cold outreaches from an employer's recruiters can be from sourcers doing dumb keyword searches. But can also be because your name was put in the hat by someone at the company (either because they know you, or because they saw something you said online).
  - bityard 2y ago
    Sure, I've had that happen too. In this case, I didn't know anyone at Automattic.
- evantbyrne 2y ago
  I've worked for quite a few recognizable organizations and let me say this: Basing hiring decisions on past employers is just plain dumb unless you are looking for someone with extremely niche skills. Earlier in my career, some local jerk told me I hadn't worked with "prestigious" enough institutions to join his startup, despite having the exact skills he needed in a candidate. His startup failed while I, coincidentally, went to work for those "prestigious" organizations he was chasing. It's all very silly.
ankleturtle 2y ago
The article update links to a Google Doc in which Matt takes issue with the following remark from the article: > he's a wealthy CEO of a for-profit corporation that is attacking a competitor Matt responds: > WP Engine is a “competitor”, but so is every other web host in the world. Automattic and WordPress.org have had good relations with all the others for 21 years. WordPress.org recommends a number of hosts. It seems Matt is forgetting his "friendly" spat with GoDaddy a few years ago. Matt continues: > His criticism of certain practices focuses on maintaining the platform’s integrity and open-source commitment to ensure the community can grow further with sustainable investments. Let's assume this is all true. It doesn't change the fact that he's attacking a direct competitor. Matt continues: > Silver Lake is far wealthier than Matt or Automattic. This is how you know that Matt wrote the response. It's the same ego defending behavior that he used when responding to DHH. Matt is very, very bad at PR. It's really time he learns that and lets others take over those roles. And it's time he learns to shut up. He hurts more than he helps.
- legitster 2y ago
  > WordPress.org recommends a number of hosts. It's worth pointing out that, of the hosts Wordpress.org just promoted (https://wordpress.org/news/2024/10/wp-engine-promotions/ https://wordpress.org/news/2024/10/wp-engine-promotions/) 3 are owned by Automattic and the other 2 pay Automattic licensing/service fees.
  - markdown 2y ago
    Thanks. Good to know that there are decent hosts to choose from, that help support WP by paying licensing/service fees.
    - legitster 2y ago
      They don't "support WP". All the fees are going to Automattic, as was revealed in term sheet Matt himself shared. The "volunteers" on the WP project that approve all of the work and revisions are full time Automattic employees. The work that the Foundation does primarily benefits Automattic. There is nothing to even support besides Automattic.
runjake 2y ago
One important people to keep in mind as they read this post, the linked Google Doc, and tweets from the past day where a bunch of people are receiving unsolicited DMs[1] from Automattic with grammar that matches Matt's: - Matt, under various guises, is shifting blame to different entities that are effectively himself. - Automattic is Matt. Matt is the CEO of Automattic. - The WordPress Foundation is, effectively, Matt. - The problem is Matt. Maybe he's right about WP Engine, but the way he has and continues to handle everything has been disastrous. 1. https://x.com/GergelyOrosz/status/1846448485979107824 https://x.com/GergelyOrosz/status/1846448485979107824
- zeruch 2y ago
  "Maybe he's right about WP Engine, but the way he has and continues to handle everything has been disastrous." This is the best single line distillation of the current lunacy. I mean with every passing day, it all becomes more and more unhinged, and I see no good outcome in the long term. The overall damage to the ecosystem I think begins it's death spiral now. It's a boon for competitors I suppose, but that's about it.
  - mjburgess 2y ago
    Well, he's not right about WP Engine. Wordpress is an open source project. If he's "right" about WP Engine, then he's "right" about basically every user of every open source project, and there ceases to be any such thing. OS is take-it-or-leave-it, if he wants contributions back, put it in the licence and also offer support.
    - Dalewyn 2y ago
      Way too many progressive people proclaim the virtues of free and open and then <pikachu_face.gif> when others take them for their word. If you want compensation of any kind you must stipulate them before the fact.
      - jeltz 2y ago
        But is Matt progressive in any sense of the word?
Mencius- 2y ago
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- deleted 2y ago
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- sureIy 2y ago
  I don't understand what the problem is. You found a cheaper hosting. Good for you. I don’t think what follows is warranted.
mugivarra69 2y ago
he is def fucking it up.
sureIy 2y ago
That Google Doc is painful to read. You point at the stars and Matt looks at the finger. > you can just continue to use WordPress without any impact That's nice— > on any other host than WP Engine That's the whole point, Matt.
spaceman_2020 2y ago
Matt’s response to DHH was really some of the pettiest stuff I’ve seen from a major public figure in the tech world Maybe its a newfound persona, maybe its a new marketing angle, or maybe its just someone going a little unhinged. But all isn’t right in the WordPress world
- deleted 2y ago
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- preommr 2y ago
  It is petty, but I find myself on Matt's side. I think he's right about the movement, right about better monetization for open source, right about the trademark issues, and while rude, his comments are harsh truths about DHH and his work in OSS. Obviously, they way he's handled everything has been bad - very valid to ask why he didn't act sooner about the trademark issue. And, snide comments about DHH not donating enough to charity are irrelevant. But he is right about a the core issues.
  - jeltz 2y ago
    The harsh truth that DHH made a ton of money but did not choose to dedicate his life to become filthy rich but instead also focused on making the world a better place through open source? I am no fan of DHH but I do not see any harsh truths.
    - preommr 2y ago
      This is an uncharitable take. An alternative one would be that DHH had ideas and works that could've been much more successful that would let him hire people that would further the goals of OSS. That he could have had companies with corporate values that are more distinct from companies whose goals are purely to extract value for their shareholders.
      - jeltz 2y ago
        More successful than Rails? A technology which changed the whole industry?
zeruch 2y ago
Both.
throwaway48476 2y ago
If you don't like it, fork it.
codegeek 2y ago
Mullenweg just keeps digging. He is the only person I have ever seen interacting in such a petty manner that he made a company backed by Private Equity look like a victim. If Trademark was the issue, why did it take him over a decade ? Why is he not going after all the other gazillion WP providers that use similar phrase on their website ? We all know the answer. The only company (WP Engine) that beat his for profit company (wordpress.com). He is just salty.
- throwawaymaths 2y ago
  Well charitably I would suspect that for the first question, he probably didn't want to rock the open source community too much. Look at the trouble the rust foundation got into for trademark enforcement, and it hasn't really been a decade. In general, there's no good time to start flexing on your trademark. For your second question, Matt claims that it's partly because WP engine disabled core features of WordPress. I can imagine a world where you are inundated with complaints that your software doesn't do X basic thing (because the top provider has disabled it) but ITS BEEN THERE THIS WHOLE FUCKING TIME TIME STOP COMPLAINING (put a smile on and explain calmly). You get my point. And then you snap. No idea if that's what is in his mind but I have some sympathy for Matt. In principle. (This is me steelmanning Matt)
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    Disabling/limiting revisions is built in to WordPress. All WP Engine did is add: define( 'WP_POST_REVISIONS', false ); to their configs.
    - swores 2y ago
      Even if they had literally disabled 80% of the functionality of wordpress, would that still be the concern of anyone other than WP Engine and their customers? Why would anyone using open source software be required to use 100% of the functionality that the software is capable of providing?
      - 2y ago
itfossil 2y ago
He is absolutely destroying WordPress. I wasn't ever a fan but given that 40% of websites rely upon it, the end users are the ones who will suffer the most here. If somebody doesn't fork WordPress soon, it will be decades before WordPress is purged from the web and in the meantime a lot of those remaining sites will devolve into bot-net members and malware hosts. Because that's how Mullenwegs crusade is going to end: With the death of WordPress.
preommr 2y ago
I just read his response to DHH, and I find it interesting how he's both out of line, and really right at the same time.
altairprime 2y ago
The Google doc linked in this post is theoretically a way for a corporation to harvest the Google usernames of people accessing it. They probably wouldn’t be able to see IPs but that doesn’t prohibit Google from writing your username into their audit logs for them. Use appropriate precautions when accessing.
- sadeshmukh 2y ago
  That's not how it works... at all. Only within an org can you track, and when you share publicly (not individually) you cannot see their view history, only aggregate and anonymous.
nfRfqX5n 2y ago
Way too early to tell, but the way everyone is piling on this guy and saying he has mental problems makes me believe he will end up being in the right on this
- jrflowers 2y ago
  This reasoning is how you end up believing the earth is flat
- jeltz 2y ago
  Because you are contrarian just to be contrarian? That is a very lazy thing to be, arguably even lazier than blindly following the masses. It is a way to feel superior without having to think. Why don't you read up and form your own opinion? It is just like 15-30 minutes of research.
  - nfRfqX5n 2y ago
    My opinion is both parties are in the wrong, but everyone is piling on this guy and calling him mentally ill
    - jjulius 2y ago
      >... [I] believe he will end up being in the right on this >My opinion is both parties are in the wrong... So you feel which way, now?
    - pessimizer 2y ago
      My opinion is very similar: both parties are in the right, but one is calling up a mob to pile up on this guy and call him mentally ill. Automattic has the right to cut off use of its trademarks and infrastructure for any reason, and the hedge fund has the right to whine about it because they got used to the generosity.
      - jeltz 2y ago
        Matt tried to call up a mob against WP Engine. For example with his talk but also the things he wrote in the admin panel of all WordPress users. It backfired and the mob turned on him. As far as I know WP Engine has not tried to call up a mob. The mob was entierly Matt's own creation. So you agree that he is the one in the wrong?
PaulHoule 2y ago
What I am not seeing in any of the discussions about this is the connection with various database products that used to be Open Source but then changed their licenses because they didn’t like AMZN and the like offering hosted versions of their products without paying anything. It’s a similar situation.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  Well, they changed their licenses. That's not what happened here.
  - PaulHoule 2y ago
    It’s another way of fighting back which could be more or less effective. (Right now I am dreading that I’ll need to change the database my RSS reader users because I can’t really use it commercially or open source the code.)
  - colechristensen 2y ago
    Wordpress can't because it was a fork of b2/cafelog. You can't un-GPL code you didn't own in the first place.
    - acdha 2y ago
      How much of that code is still left? I’d think the bigger problem is that they’d have to get everyone who ever contributed to it not as an Automattic employee to agree to a re-license.
      - philistine 2y ago
        Seeing how Matt has acted in the last couple of days, I wouldn't be surprised if they're just going to yank the license from under the project, and just wait for the lawsuits.
        acdha 2y ago
olliej 2y ago
Creating uncertainty (both for users and ecosystem developers) means he’s sabotaging it. It doesn’t matter what he thinks he’s doing (my belief is that he’s just frustrated that someone else is profiting more than he thinks is “fair” and is using everything else as a cover, but maybe he does actually believe WPE is causing harm). But here’s the problem I have with the whole position he’s taken. If this were actually about “Wordpress the project/community” the payment would be to the non profit not his personal for-profit company. If it was about trademarks, he should not have made the prior claims that the trademarks were not the property of his for profit when they functionally are. He would have not misrepresented the non profit as an independent entity (a fiction demonstrated clearly by the requirement to compensate his for profit). if WPEngine is not contributing a “fair” amount to an open source project that sucks, but that’s always a risk if you want to build a for profit business on an OSS basis. But you can’t then unilaterally and retroactively change the rules later on, and act like it’s a “protecting the community” nonsense. You sure as shit don’t get to just engage in explicit extortion.[1] Again, maybe wpengine was not contributing a fair share back to “the community”, but that’s just how OSS works, not everyone is a contributor. [1] something I’ve found myself wondering about: my understanding is that under the law a contract signed under duress is not valid. Given the threats Matt was making, if WPE had signed it, would they be able to then go to court and say it was not enforceable due to the threat being leveled at them?
neilv 2y ago
As someone very interested in open source being sustainable, I'm sympathetic to the challenges, and very interested in solutions. But, obviously, this is currently looking like a disaster of PR and community. So, hopefully they can figure out: * solutions to the open source sustainability challenges, * a solution to the harm done by recent mistakes, and * how to try to prevent mistakes like that from happening again.
legitster 2y ago
My tinfoil hat - this is all semi-intentional self-sabotage. WordPress is itself a fork of a previous open-source GPL license. Meaning Mullenweg couldn't make it close source even if he wanted to. He makes it pretty clear that he thinks all of WordPress should belong to him. So he's intentionally closing out the ecosystem by making it as hostile to third-parties as possible. As some like to say, "the cruelty is the point".
- ookblah 2y ago
  It's just "value capture" at this point. WPEngine is much larger than his own for-profit and the market is prob tapping out, which has got to be frustrating. There is much more to be made for him scorching the earth and either directing them to his company or taking a cut of competitors. I guess the logic is who cares if the overall system suffers as long as he has the biggest piece of the pie.
- easyThrowaway 2y ago
  Yep. Feels like they're getting ready for an IPO, and they see the open source ecosystem around them as potential future competitors rather than an advantage. At the end of the day having half of the web running their platform is a nice idea, but having even 5% of that exclusively on Wordpress.com, or Wordpress VIP is way better for the wallet.
mastazi 2y ago
Anyone has Mathew's Mastodon link? I wanted to follow him but the link at the end of the post is broken.
- mastazi 2y ago
  Found the link https://mastodon.social/@mathewi@journa.host https://mastodon.social/@mathewi@journa.host
jongjong 2y ago
As an open source creator, I can understand Matt's position to some extent and the frustration behind seeing some competitor profiting from his work. He is clearly eccentric. The part about him asking WP Engine for revenue-sharing in exchange for changing words in his speech made me chuckle. What I don't understand is why he cares so much. He is probably one of the wealthiest OSS people of all time so it seems petty in that context.
- pessimizer 2y ago
  I think when you're rich you'd rather give charity to the needy than to other rich guys.
  - jongjong 2y ago
    I suppose. Maybe he should be spearheading some movement or lobby to help give special treatment for open source creators. If he is just suing that company, it's really about himself and his interests. He is right to notice the moral incongruence but he can't expect other people to support him in his personal quest to get justice just for himself. What he sees as gross abuse is just day-to-day reality for the vast majority of open source developers. Many of whom struggle to get by and struggle to find jobs. Companies which refuse to even extend OSS devs a job interview are making out like bandits on top of their work while simultaneously using VC funds to raise entry barriers and ad costs so that the OSS devs cannot even compete in their own industry which they contributed to. The typical skilled OSS dev ends up with no jobs, no funding, no opportunities. OSS devs can't even afford legal representation so legal precedents are meaningless to them.
  - gitaarik 2y ago
    So in what way is he giving charity to other rich guys? Or do you mean that any OSS dev is giving charity to people making money using that software?
xnx 2y ago
"It takes a lifetime to build a good reputation, but you can lose it in a minute" No one with money at stake will allow their Wordpress install to be subject to random sabotage by the whims of unhinged behavior. I don't know if a fork is the solution, but Matt can't have admin access to so many installs.
rsynnott 2y ago
There was a shift at some point in the tech industry from CEO-as-professional-career-administrator-type to CEO-as-visionary-weirdo-founder-type. I think over the last few years, we are increasingly seeing the consequences of this. (Not that the previous model was foolproof, but they were usually a lot easier to get rid of when they went rogue; for instance see Léo Apotheker.)
drumdance 2y ago
Serious question: did Matt get divorced recently, or suffer some other family trauma? He seems very angry.

Last year, I was contacted out of the blue by an Automattic recruiter who encouraged me to apply for an engineering position there. I was intrigued for a few minutes because I recognized the company and knew they did some really terrific open source work once upon a time. But then I regained my senses... I don't have any kind of reputation or extensive proof of accomplishments or character outside of my resume and real-life social circle. Any company that would cold-contact someone like me is 100% dealing with either abnormally low offer acceptance or abnormally high employee turnover, or both. I also remember reading (on Reddit and such) from previous employees that the CEO was best described as "mercurial." There were enough bright waving red flags that I did not bother to respond.

caekislove 2y ago
Heh, like that old joke "I'd never join a club that would have me as a member"!
- vlod 2y ago
  Groucho Marx for those that are interested.
- bityard 2y ago
  Hah, I was literally thinking of that as I was writing the comment.
simanyay 2y ago
If it was a recruiter encouraging you to apply, chances are it was a mass campaign to fill the recruiting pipeline. In my experience that’s how recruiters work and the only thing it indicates is that the company has open roles to fill.
- abirch 2y ago
  Plus the recruiter adds your name to their file and tells future employers that they have x number of great programmers from which to select. You just ++x for the recruiter
FireBeyond 2y ago
Automattic's recruitment process is also... "involved": > Write a thoughtful cover letter, and thorough responses to application questions. I've seen these kind of application questions before. These are not from Automattic but comparable to what I saw from them: "Describe in detail, including the metrics, KPIs and reasoning you used when you launched your previous 0 to 1 product to ensure a good fit to your customer", "Describe in detail the biggest challenge and obstacles you've overcome getting a product to market, including both the technical aspects and business/people components, and be specific about the role you played in making sure these were surmountable" and so on. > a Slack interview This is actually novel and kinda cool, especially when it's one of the primary ways you might communicate day-to-day. > 30-60 minutes Zoom interview > Code Test for engineers - We expect the code test will take no more than a couple of days, and this is done asynchronously over the course of approximately a week That's starting to add up. > Trial "can last anywhere from a few hours to a few weeks. Most candidates complete the trial while working full-time and we know life is busy" Better check your existing employment contract about moonlighting / outside employment (I am not saying I agree with such restrictions, but given how common they are, maybe this should be called out a little more....)
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  Sounds like canonical.
  - duskwuff 2y ago
    It's not quite as bad. At least A8C doesn't ask you to talk about what grades you got in high school.
    - jasdfwasdf 2y ago
      Canonical accepts my PR's but won't hire because I didn't graduate high school :-)
      - FireBeyond 2y ago
rurp 2y ago
There's a good chance the recruiter was just spamming anyone and everyone they could find. At least 50% of the cold recruiter messages I've gotten have been for roles that had nothing to do with my background.
deleted 2y ago
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neilv 2y ago
Cold outreaches from an employer's recruiters can be from sourcers doing dumb keyword searches. But can also be because your name was put in the hat by someone at the company (either because they know you, or because they saw something you said online).
- bityard 2y ago
  Sure, I've had that happen too. In this case, I didn't know anyone at Automattic.
evantbyrne 2y ago
I've worked for quite a few recognizable organizations and let me say this: Basing hiring decisions on past employers is just plain dumb unless you are looking for someone with extremely niche skills. Earlier in my career, some local jerk told me I hadn't worked with "prestigious" enough institutions to join his startup, despite having the exact skills he needed in a candidate. His startup failed while I, coincidentally, went to work for those "prestigious" organizations he was chasing. It's all very silly.

ankleturtle 2y ago

The article update links to a Google Doc in which Matt takes issue with the following remark from the article: > he's a wealthy CEO of a for-profit corporation that is attacking a competitor Matt responds: > WP Engine is a “competitor”, but so is every other web host in the world. Automattic and WordPress.org have had good relations with all the others for 21 years. WordPress.org recommends a number of hosts. It seems Matt is forgetting his "friendly" spat with GoDaddy a few years ago. Matt continues: > His criticism of certain practices focuses on maintaining the platform’s integrity and open-source commitment to ensure the community can grow further with sustainable investments. Let's assume this is all true. It doesn't change the fact that he's attacking a direct competitor. Matt continues: > Silver Lake is far wealthier than Matt or Automattic. This is how you know that Matt wrote the response. It's the same ego defending behavior that he used when responding to DHH. Matt is very, very bad at PR. It's really time he learns that and lets others take over those roles. And it's time he learns to shut up. He hurts more than he helps.

legitster 2y ago
> WordPress.org recommends a number of hosts. It's worth pointing out that, of the hosts Wordpress.org just promoted (https://wordpress.org/news/2024/10/wp-engine-promotions/ https://wordpress.org/news/2024/10/wp-engine-promotions/) 3 are owned by Automattic and the other 2 pay Automattic licensing/service fees.
- markdown 2y ago
  Thanks. Good to know that there are decent hosts to choose from, that help support WP by paying licensing/service fees.
  - legitster 2y ago
    They don't "support WP". All the fees are going to Automattic, as was revealed in term sheet Matt himself shared. The "volunteers" on the WP project that approve all of the work and revisions are full time Automattic employees. The work that the Foundation does primarily benefits Automattic. There is nothing to even support besides Automattic.

runjake 2y ago

One important people to keep in mind as they read this post, the linked Google Doc, and tweets from the past day where a bunch of people are receiving unsolicited DMs[1] from Automattic with grammar that matches Matt's: - Matt, under various guises, is shifting blame to different entities that are effectively himself. - Automattic is Matt. Matt is the CEO of Automattic. - The WordPress Foundation is, effectively, Matt. - The problem is Matt. Maybe he's right about WP Engine, but the way he has and continues to handle everything has been disastrous. 1. https://x.com/GergelyOrosz/status/1846448485979107824 https://x.com/GergelyOrosz/status/1846448485979107824

zeruch 2y ago
"Maybe he's right about WP Engine, but the way he has and continues to handle everything has been disastrous." This is the best single line distillation of the current lunacy. I mean with every passing day, it all becomes more and more unhinged, and I see no good outcome in the long term. The overall damage to the ecosystem I think begins it's death spiral now. It's a boon for competitors I suppose, but that's about it.
- mjburgess 2y ago
  Well, he's not right about WP Engine. Wordpress is an open source project. If he's "right" about WP Engine, then he's "right" about basically every user of every open source project, and there ceases to be any such thing. OS is take-it-or-leave-it, if he wants contributions back, put it in the licence and also offer support.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    Way too many progressive people proclaim the virtues of free and open and then <pikachu_face.gif> when others take them for their word. If you want compensation of any kind you must stipulate them before the fact.
    - jeltz 2y ago
      But is Matt progressive in any sense of the word?

Mencius- 2y ago

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deleted 2y ago
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sureIy 2y ago
I don't understand what the problem is. You found a cheaper hosting. Good for you. I don’t think what follows is warranted.

mugivarra69 2y ago

he is def fucking it up.

sureIy 2y ago

That Google Doc is painful to read. You point at the stars and Matt looks at the finger. > you can just continue to use WordPress without any impact That's nice— > on any other host than WP Engine That's the whole point, Matt.

spaceman_2020 2y ago

Matt’s response to DHH was really some of the pettiest stuff I’ve seen from a major public figure in the tech world Maybe its a newfound persona, maybe its a new marketing angle, or maybe its just someone going a little unhinged. But all isn’t right in the WordPress world

deleted 2y ago
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preommr 2y ago
It is petty, but I find myself on Matt's side. I think he's right about the movement, right about better monetization for open source, right about the trademark issues, and while rude, his comments are harsh truths about DHH and his work in OSS. Obviously, they way he's handled everything has been bad - very valid to ask why he didn't act sooner about the trademark issue. And, snide comments about DHH not donating enough to charity are irrelevant. But he is right about a the core issues.
- jeltz 2y ago
  The harsh truth that DHH made a ton of money but did not choose to dedicate his life to become filthy rich but instead also focused on making the world a better place through open source? I am no fan of DHH but I do not see any harsh truths.
  - preommr 2y ago
    This is an uncharitable take. An alternative one would be that DHH had ideas and works that could've been much more successful that would let him hire people that would further the goals of OSS. That he could have had companies with corporate values that are more distinct from companies whose goals are purely to extract value for their shareholders.
    - jeltz 2y ago
      More successful than Rails? A technology which changed the whole industry?

zeruch 2y ago

Both.

throwaway48476 2y ago

If you don't like it, fork it.

codegeek 2y ago

Mullenweg just keeps digging. He is the only person I have ever seen interacting in such a petty manner that he made a company backed by Private Equity look like a victim. If Trademark was the issue, why did it take him over a decade ? Why is he not going after all the other gazillion WP providers that use similar phrase on their website ? We all know the answer. The only company (WP Engine) that beat his for profit company (wordpress.com). He is just salty.

throwawaymaths 2y ago
Well charitably I would suspect that for the first question, he probably didn't want to rock the open source community too much. Look at the trouble the rust foundation got into for trademark enforcement, and it hasn't really been a decade. In general, there's no good time to start flexing on your trademark. For your second question, Matt claims that it's partly because WP engine disabled core features of WordPress. I can imagine a world where you are inundated with complaints that your software doesn't do X basic thing (because the top provider has disabled it) but ITS BEEN THERE THIS WHOLE FUCKING TIME TIME STOP COMPLAINING (put a smile on and explain calmly). You get my point. And then you snap. No idea if that's what is in his mind but I have some sympathy for Matt. In principle. (This is me steelmanning Matt)
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  Disabling/limiting revisions is built in to WordPress. All WP Engine did is add: define( 'WP_POST_REVISIONS', false ); to their configs.
  - swores 2y ago
    Even if they had literally disabled 80% of the functionality of wordpress, would that still be the concern of anyone other than WP Engine and their customers? Why would anyone using open source software be required to use 100% of the functionality that the software is capable of providing?
    - 2y ago

itfossil 2y ago

He is absolutely destroying WordPress. I wasn't ever a fan but given that 40% of websites rely upon it, the end users are the ones who will suffer the most here. If somebody doesn't fork WordPress soon, it will be decades before WordPress is purged from the web and in the meantime a lot of those remaining sites will devolve into bot-net members and malware hosts. Because that's how Mullenwegs crusade is going to end: With the death of WordPress.

preommr 2y ago

I just read his response to DHH, and I find it interesting how he's both out of line, and really right at the same time.

altairprime 2y ago

The Google doc linked in this post is theoretically a way for a corporation to harvest the Google usernames of people accessing it. They probably wouldn’t be able to see IPs but that doesn’t prohibit Google from writing your username into their audit logs for them. Use appropriate precautions when accessing.

sadeshmukh 2y ago
That's not how it works... at all. Only within an org can you track, and when you share publicly (not individually) you cannot see their view history, only aggregate and anonymous.

nfRfqX5n 2y ago

Way too early to tell, but the way everyone is piling on this guy and saying he has mental problems makes me believe he will end up being in the right on this

jrflowers 2y ago
This reasoning is how you end up believing the earth is flat
jeltz 2y ago
Because you are contrarian just to be contrarian? That is a very lazy thing to be, arguably even lazier than blindly following the masses. It is a way to feel superior without having to think. Why don't you read up and form your own opinion? It is just like 15-30 minutes of research.
- nfRfqX5n 2y ago
  My opinion is both parties are in the wrong, but everyone is piling on this guy and calling him mentally ill
  - jjulius 2y ago
    >... [I] believe he will end up being in the right on this >My opinion is both parties are in the wrong... So you feel which way, now?
  - pessimizer 2y ago
    My opinion is very similar: both parties are in the right, but one is calling up a mob to pile up on this guy and call him mentally ill. Automattic has the right to cut off use of its trademarks and infrastructure for any reason, and the hedge fund has the right to whine about it because they got used to the generosity.
    - jeltz 2y ago
      Matt tried to call up a mob against WP Engine. For example with his talk but also the things he wrote in the admin panel of all WordPress users. It backfired and the mob turned on him. As far as I know WP Engine has not tried to call up a mob. The mob was entierly Matt's own creation. So you agree that he is the one in the wrong?

PaulHoule 2y ago

What I am not seeing in any of the discussions about this is the connection with various database products that used to be Open Source but then changed their licenses because they didn’t like AMZN and the like offering hosted versions of their products without paying anything. It’s a similar situation.

ceejayoz 2y ago
Well, they changed their licenses. That's not what happened here.
- PaulHoule 2y ago
  It’s another way of fighting back which could be more or less effective. (Right now I am dreading that I’ll need to change the database my RSS reader users because I can’t really use it commercially or open source the code.)
- colechristensen 2y ago
  Wordpress can't because it was a fork of b2/cafelog. You can't un-GPL code you didn't own in the first place.
  - acdha 2y ago
    How much of that code is still left? I’d think the bigger problem is that they’d have to get everyone who ever contributed to it not as an Automattic employee to agree to a re-license.
    - philistine 2y ago
      Seeing how Matt has acted in the last couple of days, I wouldn't be surprised if they're just going to yank the license from under the project, and just wait for the lawsuits.
      - acdha 2y ago

olliej 2y ago

Creating uncertainty (both for users and ecosystem developers) means he’s sabotaging it. It doesn’t matter what he thinks he’s doing (my belief is that he’s just frustrated that someone else is profiting more than he thinks is “fair” and is using everything else as a cover, but maybe he does actually believe WPE is causing harm). But here’s the problem I have with the whole position he’s taken. If this were actually about “Wordpress the project/community” the payment would be to the non profit not his personal for-profit company. If it was about trademarks, he should not have made the prior claims that the trademarks were not the property of his for profit when they functionally are. He would have not misrepresented the non profit as an independent entity (a fiction demonstrated clearly by the requirement to compensate his for profit). if WPEngine is not contributing a “fair” amount to an open source project that sucks, but that’s always a risk if you want to build a for profit business on an OSS basis. But you can’t then unilaterally and retroactively change the rules later on, and act like it’s a “protecting the community” nonsense. You sure as shit don’t get to just engage in explicit extortion.[1] Again, maybe wpengine was not contributing a fair share back to “the community”, but that’s just how OSS works, not everyone is a contributor. [1] something I’ve found myself wondering about: my understanding is that under the law a contract signed under duress is not valid. Given the threats Matt was making, if WPE had signed it, would they be able to then go to court and say it was not enforceable due to the threat being leveled at them?

neilv 2y ago

As someone very interested in open source being sustainable, I'm sympathetic to the challenges, and very interested in solutions. But, obviously, this is currently looking like a disaster of PR and community. So, hopefully they can figure out: * solutions to the open source sustainability challenges, * a solution to the harm done by recent mistakes, and * how to try to prevent mistakes like that from happening again.

legitster 2y ago

My tinfoil hat - this is all semi-intentional self-sabotage. WordPress is itself a fork of a previous open-source GPL license. Meaning Mullenweg couldn't make it close source even if he wanted to. He makes it pretty clear that he thinks all of WordPress should belong to him. So he's intentionally closing out the ecosystem by making it as hostile to third-parties as possible. As some like to say, "the cruelty is the point".

ookblah 2y ago
It's just "value capture" at this point. WPEngine is much larger than his own for-profit and the market is prob tapping out, which has got to be frustrating. There is much more to be made for him scorching the earth and either directing them to his company or taking a cut of competitors. I guess the logic is who cares if the overall system suffers as long as he has the biggest piece of the pie.
easyThrowaway 2y ago
Yep. Feels like they're getting ready for an IPO, and they see the open source ecosystem around them as potential future competitors rather than an advantage. At the end of the day having half of the web running their platform is a nice idea, but having even 5% of that exclusively on Wordpress.com, or Wordpress VIP is way better for the wallet.

mastazi 2y ago

Anyone has Mathew's Mastodon link? I wanted to follow him but the link at the end of the post is broken.

mastazi 2y ago
Found the link https://mastodon.social/@mathewi@journa.host https://mastodon.social/@mathewi@journa.host

jongjong 2y ago

As an open source creator, I can understand Matt's position to some extent and the frustration behind seeing some competitor profiting from his work. He is clearly eccentric. The part about him asking WP Engine for revenue-sharing in exchange for changing words in his speech made me chuckle. What I don't understand is why he cares so much. He is probably one of the wealthiest OSS people of all time so it seems petty in that context.

pessimizer 2y ago
I think when you're rich you'd rather give charity to the needy than to other rich guys.
- jongjong 2y ago
  I suppose. Maybe he should be spearheading some movement or lobby to help give special treatment for open source creators. If he is just suing that company, it's really about himself and his interests. He is right to notice the moral incongruence but he can't expect other people to support him in his personal quest to get justice just for himself. What he sees as gross abuse is just day-to-day reality for the vast majority of open source developers. Many of whom struggle to get by and struggle to find jobs. Companies which refuse to even extend OSS devs a job interview are making out like bandits on top of their work while simultaneously using VC funds to raise entry barriers and ad costs so that the OSS devs cannot even compete in their own industry which they contributed to. The typical skilled OSS dev ends up with no jobs, no funding, no opportunities. OSS devs can't even afford legal representation so legal precedents are meaningless to them.
- gitaarik 2y ago
  So in what way is he giving charity to other rich guys? Or do you mean that any OSS dev is giving charity to people making money using that software?

xnx 2y ago

"It takes a lifetime to build a good reputation, but you can lose it in a minute" No one with money at stake will allow their Wordpress install to be subject to random sabotage by the whims of unhinged behavior. I don't know if a fork is the solution, but Matt can't have admin access to so many installs.

rsynnott 2y ago

There was a shift at some point in the tech industry from CEO-as-professional-career-administrator-type to CEO-as-visionary-weirdo-founder-type. I think over the last few years, we are increasingly seeing the consequences of this. (Not that the previous model was foolproof, but they were usually a lot easier to get rid of when they went rogue; for instance see Léo Apotheker.)

drumdance 2y ago

Serious question: did Matt get divorced recently, or suffer some other family trauma? He seems very angry.