8 ms·

> We need to teach our students... Teach your values to your own kids, man

by clircle 2y ago

cambaceres 2y ago
The perfect response to this kind of preaching.
- moolcool 2y ago
  I don't think it's preachy at all to say "Hey, the work you do has impacts on the wider world"
  - derkster 2y ago
    who are we to hold others accountable for their actions when money is at stake?
    - crabbone 2y ago
      Potentially the ones affected by the actions of those receiving the money?
  - next_xibalba 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - acdha 2y ago
      If you think ethics is “bureaucracy” and “useless classes”, you’re pretty loudly shouting that you needed that instruction. The problem with leaving it to parents is that parents are not uniformly qualified or interested in doing so, and it’s in society’s best interests not to leave important things to chance.
      - deltarholamda 2y ago
        You have just re-invented the priestly caste.
        soulofmischief 2y ago
        Surely you have the capability of making a distinction between doctrine established for hierarchical control and a teaching a basic system of deriving ethics or morality, with the exact intention of preventing such hierarchical control within an industry that has the power to make any extreme institutional system a reality. You've seen the effects of a generation of social media technologies and how it compared to the previous generation of internet communication such as BBS, forums, etc. I assume you've lived long enough to witness an internet stewarded by those who place ethics or morality above purely capitalistic motivation, vs. an internet stewarded by a generation of new-age, fake-ethical "They 'trust me'. Dumb fucks" tech entrepreneurs.
        deltarholamda 2y ago
        The post I was replying to explicitly said we couldn't leave the teaching of things like ethics and morality up to parents. That's a priestly caste. It's all well and good to say that your chosen priest caste won't exert hierarchical control, pinky swear, but history and human nature disagrees with you. It's also odd to suggest that we can teach a system of deriving ethics or morality. Philosophers have been hard at work on this for a long time and haven't gotten terribly far, and they disagree with each other quite strenuously.
        moolcool 2y ago
        Have you taken a university level ethics course before? They teach the different ethical frameworks, where they come from, and then get you to apply them to different situations. The classes don't tell you what's right and what's wrong, but rather, the different frameworks people can use to determine that.
        2y ago
    - webdood90 2y ago
      This is a great example of the toxic individualism our society suffers from. There is no sense of community or doing what's right for the greater good because people think they always know better.
      - tolerance 2y ago
        The sad thing is that there is some truth to the parent comment. For the most part it's an accurate representation of how morals are appropriated into institutions like academia. As important qualities like community and a shared notion of a common good in humanity are, the system as it stands will render them according to its own interests and students will exit none the wiser. Character becomes standardized into a set of "values" of an entirely different sort. The problem is that Students inevitably become parents, and some inevitably branch out into "other institutions" professionally, espousing Moral Character® and we're left to figure out who contaminated what? The baby or the bathwater?
    - soulofmischief 2y ago
      This comment is a great example of a straw man argument. > leave moral instruction to parents and other institutions like it should be. Should be, according to what doctrine? It certainly sounds like you're attempting to establish institutional moral instruction by imposing limits on when and where morality can be discussed. Why are we allowed to teach students astronomy but not morality? Go back further and we couldn't even freely teach astronomy. Do you remember Galileo's trial for heresy? Or Socrates' condemnation to death for "corrupting the youth"? This war for teaching the ability to capably assess ethics and morality has been waging before you, I, Hacker News, universities, the internet, the printing press... If you don't think it was right to kill Socrates for simply spreading the message of critical thinking, then you have to accept that adults can organize to teach whatever they wish at universities, assuming it doesn't run afoul of Constitutional protections.
- bookaway 2y ago
  You should write a book about how a society composed entirely of pure-bred mercenaries outlasted all other competing civilizations on the planet. I'd be very interested in reading it.
- nkrisc 2y ago
  If you live in the woods alone and don’t interact with society.
Certhas 2y ago
Students are adults. Teaching them that their choices have systemic consequences is not the same as forcing values on them. It might be factually incorrect, but it's not a value statement. And I have no worries that the billionaires will make sure their views and values are aired and widely known, so students will be very much able to make up their own mind.
moolcool 2y ago
Most Computer Science and engineering curriculums include courses about professional ethics.
throwaway19972 2y ago
Pretty much every dysfunction of this society can be traced back to this attitude. Social responsibility to other people beyond your own kin is necessary to produce a society worth living in. This necessarily includes taking up the burden of teaching you the values your parents refused to teach you.

> We need to teach our students... Teach your values to your own kids, man

cambaceres 2y ago

The perfect response to this kind of preaching.

moolcool 2y ago
I don't think it's preachy at all to say "Hey, the work you do has impacts on the wider world"
- derkster 2y ago
  who are we to hold others accountable for their actions when money is at stake?
  - crabbone 2y ago
    Potentially the ones affected by the actions of those receiving the money?
- next_xibalba 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - acdha 2y ago
    If you think ethics is “bureaucracy” and “useless classes”, you’re pretty loudly shouting that you needed that instruction. The problem with leaving it to parents is that parents are not uniformly qualified or interested in doing so, and it’s in society’s best interests not to leave important things to chance.
    - deltarholamda 2y ago
      You have just re-invented the priestly caste.
      - soulofmischief 2y ago
        Surely you have the capability of making a distinction between doctrine established for hierarchical control and a teaching a basic system of deriving ethics or morality, with the exact intention of preventing such hierarchical control within an industry that has the power to make any extreme institutional system a reality. You've seen the effects of a generation of social media technologies and how it compared to the previous generation of internet communication such as BBS, forums, etc. I assume you've lived long enough to witness an internet stewarded by those who place ethics or morality above purely capitalistic motivation, vs. an internet stewarded by a generation of new-age, fake-ethical "They 'trust me'. Dumb fucks" tech entrepreneurs.
        deltarholamda 2y ago
        The post I was replying to explicitly said we couldn't leave the teaching of things like ethics and morality up to parents. That's a priestly caste. It's all well and good to say that your chosen priest caste won't exert hierarchical control, pinky swear, but history and human nature disagrees with you. It's also odd to suggest that we can teach a system of deriving ethics or morality. Philosophers have been hard at work on this for a long time and haven't gotten terribly far, and they disagree with each other quite strenuously.
        moolcool 2y ago
        Have you taken a university level ethics course before? They teach the different ethical frameworks, where they come from, and then get you to apply them to different situations. The classes don't tell you what's right and what's wrong, but rather, the different frameworks people can use to determine that.
        2y ago
  - webdood90 2y ago
    This is a great example of the toxic individualism our society suffers from. There is no sense of community or doing what's right for the greater good because people think they always know better.
    - tolerance 2y ago
      The sad thing is that there is some truth to the parent comment. For the most part it's an accurate representation of how morals are appropriated into institutions like academia. As important qualities like community and a shared notion of a common good in humanity are, the system as it stands will render them according to its own interests and students will exit none the wiser. Character becomes standardized into a set of "values" of an entirely different sort. The problem is that Students inevitably become parents, and some inevitably branch out into "other institutions" professionally, espousing Moral Character® and we're left to figure out who contaminated what? The baby or the bathwater?
  - soulofmischief 2y ago
    This comment is a great example of a straw man argument. > leave moral instruction to parents and other institutions like it should be. Should be, according to what doctrine? It certainly sounds like you're attempting to establish institutional moral instruction by imposing limits on when and where morality can be discussed. Why are we allowed to teach students astronomy but not morality? Go back further and we couldn't even freely teach astronomy. Do you remember Galileo's trial for heresy? Or Socrates' condemnation to death for "corrupting the youth"? This war for teaching the ability to capably assess ethics and morality has been waging before you, I, Hacker News, universities, the internet, the printing press... If you don't think it was right to kill Socrates for simply spreading the message of critical thinking, then you have to accept that adults can organize to teach whatever they wish at universities, assuming it doesn't run afoul of Constitutional protections.
bookaway 2y ago
You should write a book about how a society composed entirely of pure-bred mercenaries outlasted all other competing civilizations on the planet. I'd be very interested in reading it.
nkrisc 2y ago
If you live in the woods alone and don’t interact with society.

Certhas 2y ago

Students are adults. Teaching them that their choices have systemic consequences is not the same as forcing values on them. It might be factually incorrect, but it's not a value statement. And I have no worries that the billionaires will make sure their views and values are aired and widely known, so students will be very much able to make up their own mind.

moolcool 2y ago

Most Computer Science and engineering curriculums include courses about professional ethics.

throwaway19972 2y ago

Pretty much every dysfunction of this society can be traced back to this attitude. Social responsibility to other people beyond your own kin is necessary to produce a society worth living in. This necessarily includes taking up the burden of teaching you the values your parents refused to teach you.