5 ms·

That is surprising, I've always thought the value proposition of used EV would be miles ahead of ICE vehicles, at least the more modern ones. A quick google als

by Lutger 2y ago

That is surprising, I've always thought the value proposition of used EV would be miles ahead of ICE vehicles, at least the more modern ones. A quick google also confirms that the average life expectancy in mileage of EV is already ahead of ICE cars. Generally, EV have the reputation of requiring much less maintenance.

lordofgibbons 2y ago
Ever have your phone or laptop not hold the charge it used to when you first bought it? The same thing happens to car batteries. This certainly doesn't help with people's range anxiety. I'm on the sideline waiting for the battery tech to improve a bit more before buying my next (electric) car. As an aside, I'm horrified by what new privacy invasive "features" these cars will include in all electric cars.
- traceroute66 2y ago
  > I'm horrified by what new privacy invasive "features" these cars will include in all electric cars. My main horror with EVs, particularly Teslas is putting everything on a tablet display in the middle. Its like it was designed by some kid who's never driven a car. Its a safety issue, frankly. IMHO.
  - jcgrillo 2y ago
    In many U.S. states using a cell phone while driving is illegal under distracted driving rules. It should be the same for touch screens of all kinds.
- necrobrit 2y ago
  Data is a bit light on the ground given we haven't had masses of EVs for all that long. But I wouldn't necessarily have this expectation based off of phones and laptops. EVs have really high-end battery management systems and cooling, which will have a huge impact on battery life. Heck even my phone is lasting better these days with just better software battery management in Android. My current oneplus 9 is going on three and a half years old and hasn't notably degraded in battery life. Whereas I'm pretty sure I remember all my previous phones having noticeable battery degradation after a year or so.
- xxs 2y ago
  >Ever have your phone or laptop not hold the charge it used to when you first bought it? While true, the analogy is bad. The phones (and to some extent laptops) are notorious of the overcharge. The Li-Ion (cobalt) normally should be charged to 4.22V or so. Tool batteries usually do not go over 4.18V. Yet, the phones are happily pushing 4.35V - which provides longer life per charge initially, plus a proper planned obsolescence later. EV do proper battery management AND cooling.
  - formerly_proven 2y ago
    At the very extreme end, Apple Watch batteries have a 3.87 V nominal and 4.45 V end of charge voltage. Most lipoly pouch cells would turn into a balloon trying to do that once.
traceroute66 2y ago
> Generally, EV have the reputation of requiring much less maintenance. I'm sure you could generate a maintenance figure for EV that was lower than ICE if you wanted to. But I doubt that figure would be significant, maybe 10-15% if you're lucky. Why ? Well, let's face it, an EV is still a car. So you still have 99% of the same old things ... tyres, brakes, shock-absorbers, windscreen, windscreen wiper blades, washer fluid, AC gas etc. etc. etc. And then, of course, if there are problems with your EV battery, or its time for an EV battery replacement, then that 10-15% saving goes out the window. :)
- chrisco255 2y ago
  > an EV is still a car. So you still have the same old things ... No, an ICE has a very complex drivetrain with thousands of moving parts. Belts, transmissions, gears, fuel filter, oil seals and gaskets, batteries (ICE's need them too), spark plugs, fuel pump, fuel injector, alternator, radiator and water pump, catalytic converter, etc etc . Brakes also wear slower on EVs since regnerative braking captures some energy. Electric motors themselves are far more reliable and simpler than ICE motors.
  - xxs 2y ago
    since you mention the radiator, the EV needs quite the cooling as well; although I do agree for the most part. The electric motors are a lot simpler than even a small engine lawnmower.
    - traceroute66 2y ago
      > batteries (ICE's need them too) I've replaced a few ICE batteries in my time. You can replace them at home in 5 minutes and they are a gazillion times cheaper than an EV battery. :) > ICE has a very complex drivetrain with thousands of moving parts. Belts, transmissions, gears, fuel filter, oil seals and gaskets This whole thing about ICE is FUD IMHO. Yes, complex, but on modern ICE vehicles is highly-reliable. Also I would argue with EVs you are replacing ICE "complexity" with other complexity. For example, in EVs you now have individual motors on four wheels (i.e. potentially four points of failure), you have all the software in EVs etc. etc. etc. I would also argue that the ICE "complexity" of what you speak is NOT where the bulk of ICE maintenance costs come from. Afterall, topping up the oil and replacing gaskets is kids work. The bulk of ICE maintenance will ultimately be the same as EV maintenance, i.e. all the wear-and-tear parts I listed already, such as tyres.
yreg 2y ago
Used EVs tend to be quite expensive for now, at least in EU. But it's certainly also affected by supply/demand, there are simply not that many used EVs for sale yet. And at least in case of Teslas it's mostly the higher models in higher trims, since those are the ones the early customers bought.

by Lutger 2y ago

lordofgibbons 2y ago

Ever have your phone or laptop not hold the charge it used to when you first bought it? The same thing happens to car batteries. This certainly doesn't help with people's range anxiety. I'm on the sideline waiting for the battery tech to improve a bit more before buying my next (electric) car. As an aside, I'm horrified by what new privacy invasive "features" these cars will include in all electric cars.

traceroute66 2y ago
> I'm horrified by what new privacy invasive "features" these cars will include in all electric cars. My main horror with EVs, particularly Teslas is putting everything on a tablet display in the middle. Its like it was designed by some kid who's never driven a car. Its a safety issue, frankly. IMHO.
- jcgrillo 2y ago
  In many U.S. states using a cell phone while driving is illegal under distracted driving rules. It should be the same for touch screens of all kinds.
necrobrit 2y ago
Data is a bit light on the ground given we haven't had masses of EVs for all that long. But I wouldn't necessarily have this expectation based off of phones and laptops. EVs have really high-end battery management systems and cooling, which will have a huge impact on battery life. Heck even my phone is lasting better these days with just better software battery management in Android. My current oneplus 9 is going on three and a half years old and hasn't notably degraded in battery life. Whereas I'm pretty sure I remember all my previous phones having noticeable battery degradation after a year or so.
xxs 2y ago
>Ever have your phone or laptop not hold the charge it used to when you first bought it? While true, the analogy is bad. The phones (and to some extent laptops) are notorious of the overcharge. The Li-Ion (cobalt) normally should be charged to 4.22V or so. Tool batteries usually do not go over 4.18V. Yet, the phones are happily pushing 4.35V - which provides longer life per charge initially, plus a proper planned obsolescence later. EV do proper battery management AND cooling.
- formerly_proven 2y ago
  At the very extreme end, Apple Watch batteries have a 3.87 V nominal and 4.45 V end of charge voltage. Most lipoly pouch cells would turn into a balloon trying to do that once.

traceroute66 2y ago

> Generally, EV have the reputation of requiring much less maintenance. I'm sure you could generate a maintenance figure for EV that was lower than ICE if you wanted to. But I doubt that figure would be significant, maybe 10-15% if you're lucky. Why ? Well, let's face it, an EV is still a car. So you still have 99% of the same old things ... tyres, brakes, shock-absorbers, windscreen, windscreen wiper blades, washer fluid, AC gas etc. etc. etc. And then, of course, if there are problems with your EV battery, or its time for an EV battery replacement, then that 10-15% saving goes out the window. :)

chrisco255 2y ago
> an EV is still a car. So you still have the same old things ... No, an ICE has a very complex drivetrain with thousands of moving parts. Belts, transmissions, gears, fuel filter, oil seals and gaskets, batteries (ICE's need them too), spark plugs, fuel pump, fuel injector, alternator, radiator and water pump, catalytic converter, etc etc . Brakes also wear slower on EVs since regnerative braking captures some energy. Electric motors themselves are far more reliable and simpler than ICE motors.
- xxs 2y ago
  since you mention the radiator, the EV needs quite the cooling as well; although I do agree for the most part. The electric motors are a lot simpler than even a small engine lawnmower.
  - traceroute66 2y ago
    > batteries (ICE's need them too) I've replaced a few ICE batteries in my time. You can replace them at home in 5 minutes and they are a gazillion times cheaper than an EV battery. :) > ICE has a very complex drivetrain with thousands of moving parts. Belts, transmissions, gears, fuel filter, oil seals and gaskets This whole thing about ICE is FUD IMHO. Yes, complex, but on modern ICE vehicles is highly-reliable. Also I would argue with EVs you are replacing ICE "complexity" with other complexity. For example, in EVs you now have individual motors on four wheels (i.e. potentially four points of failure), you have all the software in EVs etc. etc. etc. I would also argue that the ICE "complexity" of what you speak is NOT where the bulk of ICE maintenance costs come from. Afterall, topping up the oil and replacing gaskets is kids work. The bulk of ICE maintenance will ultimately be the same as EV maintenance, i.e. all the wear-and-tear parts I listed already, such as tyres.

yreg 2y ago

Used EVs tend to be quite expensive for now, at least in EU. But it's certainly also affected by supply/demand, there are simply not that many used EVs for sale yet. And at least in case of Teslas it's mostly the higher models in higher trims, since those are the ones the early customers bought.