6 ms·

Now, let's institute an actual price rule. I can't rent an Airbnb or book a plane ticket without being lied to about what the actual prices is.

staringback 2y ago
> book a plane ticket without being lied to about what the actual prices is This hasn't been true for at minimum 10 years. Paying for extra leg room is not a "junk fee"
- arlcode 2y ago
  That really depends. Me and everybody else in my close family doesn't really need that. And we short but not to that far from the average height.
luddit3 2y ago
Biden admin did add upfront fee declarations to show the consumer the actual price.
cogman10 2y ago
"Fees" on top of the top line price should be illegal. It's just a way to smuggle in a 100% increase in the purchase price to get an initial buy in for a product. It is super scammy. Heck, I would even take this a step further and say that taxes as well should always be fully included in the topline price. If a company wants to add a breakdown of how much went to taxes, I'm ok with that. The sticker price should always be the full price.
- VBprogrammer 2y ago
  As a British person this is always so alien when traveling in the US. You could go one step further and suggest that perhaps tips which are practically mandatory should be included in the headline price but that might be a step too far.
  - mholm 2y ago
    Many restaurants have tried this, and end up switching back because comparing prices to other restaurants puts them at a disadvantage. I think the only way for it to happen is regulation that forces it. Might as well include taxes in that price too.
    - uxp100 2y ago
      Staff often doesn’t like it either. Probably some combination of actually making less money and being overly optimistic about what they would be making if they were getting tips. a bar I was aware of that advertised paying $20+ and hour with no tips switched to a tipped model due to staff complaints.
      - ruined 2y ago
        it sounds like what happened is management simply did not replace the tipped wage with an appropriate flat wage. if management provided a satisfactory wage, nobody would complain.
      - bobthepanda 2y ago
        there would be a rough transition period, but i do believe that in countries where tipping is not the norm, places just pay more to get better stuff the way non-tipped labor already works. one of the breweries i live by recently moved from non-tipped to tip, and it's generally a disliked change from what I hear because most of the time the brewery is open it's not busy enough to make up for the loss in wages, and then people fight over the really busy shifts.
      - datavirtue 2y ago
        The best employees complain loudly. End of discussion on that one.
  - parineum 2y ago
    The trouble is that sales tax can be different in every municipality. National advertising would be a nightmare. However, I think prices at brick and mortar stores should be tax included and, when shopping online, if my address is known, the tax should be include as well. I also think "plus Tax/Tax included" should be featured more prominently but I think that businesses would likely do that themselves given the conditions above so that, when comparing prices, you would very noticeably see that whether tax was included or not in your price. ie, Amazon would put in green letters near the price "Tax included" so when I compared their price to another place I would know why Amazon's price might be higher.
- deanputney 2y ago
  Taxes should also be included in the advertised price, then. Just imagine!
  - Kon-Peki 2y ago
    That would be nice, but there is a LOT of background work before that is feasible (in the US). As it currently stands, for many products a vendor would need to know who you are and where you live before they could quote you a total price. That's unacceptable.
    - perfectstorm 2y ago
      other countries have figured that out even countries with multiple levels of taxation like in the U.S. it's not an unsolvable problem.
      - Kon-Peki 2y ago
        > not an unsolvable problem I never said it was. In fact, I specifically said that there is work to do before making the rule about listing all prices inclusive of taxes.
        perfectstorm 2y ago
        but you did say that figuring out the final price is "unacceptable"? why is it unacceptable? my point is that other countries have figured out a way to display the final prices, but USA still hasn't figured out how to do it or they don't have any plans to do it.
        Kon-Peki 2y ago
        As things stand currently, it would be unacceptably intrusive as you have to collect information on all shoppers whether they purchase or not. Do the pre-work first, and then make a rule about displaying the final price.
    - 2y ago
- hansvm 2y ago
  Interestingly, in some states it's illegal to post the "price" as one including all applicable taxes.
  - red_trumpet 2y ago
    Do you mean states of the USA or states as in "country"? Which ones?
    - hansvm 2y ago
      I meant states of the USA. It looks like it's not as bad as it used to be (time for me to read a few more laws I guess). A decade ago WA prohibited the practice. I'm not sure where it might currently be illegal.
  - pirate787 2y ago
    I mentioned the reason in another comment, it's an important govt transparency principle that the tax burden be separate and visible.
    - hansvm 2y ago
      Yes, but much like cigarette lobbying, you want to look at who's paying for the given outcome. We have cigarette minimum prices because it increases profits for tobacco companies, and we have this fraudulent price reporting nonsense because lower advertised prices result in more sales. Transparency could just as easily be achieved via a tax breakdown on the receipts merchants are already required to provide on request, while correctly advertising what the consumer will actually pay.
the_svd_doctor 2y ago
For plane that's pretty unfair. If you don't get any ancillary fees, the price you see is almost exactly up to the cent what you pay. Now if you get any extra, sure. But that's a different problem from Airbnb hiding 100% of the cost in mandatory cleaning fees.
- danaris 2y ago
  The trouble is, without some overriding authority defining what it means to "have a plane ticket", what counts as "included"? Because anything that doesn't can then be considered an "add-on". Carry-on luggage. Meal/snack and beverage service. A pillow and blanket. A seat that's not a middle seat. Even the ability to choose your seat at all. Airlines that want to tighten the screws on their passengers can, in theory, start charging for all of those, and calling them "paid add-ons", even under a "no junk fees" law, if we don't clearly define what passengers should be able to expect to be included in their ticket.
  - the_svd_doctor 2y ago
    I get you. AFAICT what's included for airlines is basically "get me from A to B". There are usually ways to filter out by seat types, though, both on airlines websites and in places like Google flights. In my experience those are also pretty accurate.
  - alkonaut 2y ago
    The comparison price for flights should be normalized. Like for example including either a carry on luggage or a checked in bag but not necessarily both, and no reserved seat. If some even cheaper airline wants to sell tickets without carry on or whatever then they’ll have to list the higher price and offer a pleasant surprise of a lower-than-advertised price when the customer completed the booking.
  - testfoobar 2y ago
    There are some completely new and wacky fee structures though. I recently flew Avelo airlines - baggage fees were a function of when I paid - rising as I got closer to the flight date.
conradev 2y ago
California did this: > Guests in California will see a fee-inclusive total price—before taxes—on all listings. https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/3610 https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/3610 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202320240SB478 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml...
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  > before taxes Now they just need to fix that part.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - darkhelmet 2y ago
    Right up front: I agree. But, implementing this will be an absolute PITA because so many other things are systemically broken. Case in point: cost breakdown from the invoice of an online order a few months ago (with the dollar amounts removed): > Subtotal > Shipping (Economy) > Tax (Solano County Tax 0.25%) > Tax (Vacaville City Tax 0.75%) > Tax (Solano County District Tax Sp 0.125%) > Tax (Solano Co Local Tax Sl 1.0%) > Tax (California State Tax 6.0%) Once your address is known taxes can be calculated. At what point is an after-tax final price to be shown? On an ad? On a targeted Ad? Once you reach the storefront based on unreliable geolocation? (which would be wrong for me, because geolocation bundles two cities here together as one) Once you create an account? At the checkout when you've specified the shipping address? As things tend to happen today, its usually only at the last step. As much as I'd like to see it, I don't see much chance of improving the visibility of final prices without comprehensive systemic tax reform first. The obvious quick solutions aren't exactly fair in the current US system. Imagine a "quick fix" of requiring the vendors to price in-a generic taxes for everyone. Just like with credit card system fees, "simple" fixes like that that benefit the residents of high-sales-tax states to the detriment of no-sales-tax state residents. While such a system would work for physical stores, they would get hammered if they had to prices on the shelves or signs that were higher than online prices. As much as we all want a fair straight-forward system, I don't imagine it happening any time soon in the US. There are way too many unresolved zero-sum political fights and ideological differences standing in the way. It certainly can be done (eg: Australia) but the circumstances there were very different.
colechristensen 2y ago
The Minnesota law which provides exactly this goes into effect in 2025. https://www.allaboutadvertisinglaw.com/2024/06/minnesota-joins-the-fee-fray-with-a-twist-on-variable-pricing.html https://www.allaboutadvertisinglaw.com/2024/06/minnesota-joi...
- alkonaut 2y ago
  Wanted to see if it finally included taxes on price tags… but instead this law explicitly excludes taxes. So close.
  - scottyah 2y ago
    The government needs to provide a service if we ever want taxes to be included. Taxes vary by city and can even depend on where you live, so sellers wouldn't be able to give you a price until you say where you are and where you're from for some sales. That's why you basically need a third party if you run an ecommerce website, unless you have a team to track down every time a county or city changes their taxes.
    - alkonaut 2y ago
      You could exclude prices on preprinted tags and just regulate shelve pricing and store signs I guess.
    - colechristensen 2y ago
      >That's why you basically need a third party if you run an ecommerce website, unless you have a team to track down every time a county or city changes their taxes. Every ecommerce site already has to calculate taxes on checkout, already has a third party for this information (usually the payment processor).
enragedcacti 2y ago
I have good news! (as long as Lina Khan stays on as commissioner) > FTC Proposes Rule to Ban Junk Fees: The proposed rule would ban businesses from running up the bills with hidden and bogus fees, ensure consumers know exactly how much they are paying and what they are getting, and help spur companies to compete on offering the lowest price. Businesses would have to include all mandatory fees when telling consumers a price https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/10/ftc-proposes-rule-ban-junk-fees https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/10/...
- r00fus 2y ago
  > (as long as Lina Khan stays on as commissioner) She may not be around for long (a travesty in my opinion if so). Neither presidential candidate is stumping for her kind of activism, even the Dem one. And the big money wants her gone. Sure we can vote, but it seems big money has more influence regardless.
  - saturn8601 2y ago
    While the candidates may not like her, support for her crosses party lines and so there may be enough people to make a stink about it to make it politically unviable. I do concede that both candidates are just terrible on this.
  - enragedcacti 2y ago
    > Neither presidential candidate is stumping for her kind of activism, even the Dem one Harris hasn't outright said she would keep on Khan, but from a policy perspective I think they are very aligned, even to the point of Harris copying Khan's homework a bit (not in a bad way, just interesting). They have both explicitly called out grocery revenue growth exceeding total costs, both want to go after PBMs to lower drug prices, both want to go after junk fees, both have come out against algorithmic rent pricing, both have called out misclassification of workers. If Harris does want to keep her on I still don't think it's in either of their interests for Harris to stake out a position. It opens the Harris campaign up to attacks on Khan's many court setbacks and erodes whatever bipartisan support Khan still has. Also, Harris doesn't have to do anything to keep her on, if she doesn't appoint anyone then by law Khan will remain acting commissioner indefinitely.
HDThoreaun 2y ago
Plane tickets legally have to include all required fees. I do not pay any more than google flights shows.
adrr 2y ago
Plane tickets show you all included price including taxes/fee. It was part of 2012 regulation requiring full fare disclosure passed in 2012. Telecom/Internet providers ares ones that need to be fixed because companies like Verizon will charge you bogus "taxes" like a network portability tax which isn't a tax and they pocket the money.
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  Even then, there's other challenges. With Delta, booking a flight, I see a rough return airfare when I select my outbound leg, that then might be tweaked by my inbound leg choices. Booking with Alaska, I get a fare listed that is only the outbound leg, and then I have to discover the inbound leg price. This often gives the impression that fares are or will be cheaper with Alaska, and then after a few clicks, you realize that they're (mostly) the "same".
ccorcos 2y ago
There’s actually a way to do this currently: https://jake.tl/notes/2022-05-how-to-airbnb https://jake.tl/notes/2022-05-how-to-airbnb

staringback 2y ago

> book a plane ticket without being lied to about what the actual prices is This hasn't been true for at minimum 10 years. Paying for extra leg room is not a "junk fee"

arlcode 2y ago
That really depends. Me and everybody else in my close family doesn't really need that. And we short but not to that far from the average height.

luddit3 2y ago

Biden admin did add upfront fee declarations to show the consumer the actual price.

cogman10 2y ago

"Fees" on top of the top line price should be illegal. It's just a way to smuggle in a 100% increase in the purchase price to get an initial buy in for a product. It is super scammy. Heck, I would even take this a step further and say that taxes as well should always be fully included in the topline price. If a company wants to add a breakdown of how much went to taxes, I'm ok with that. The sticker price should always be the full price.

VBprogrammer 2y ago
As a British person this is always so alien when traveling in the US. You could go one step further and suggest that perhaps tips which are practically mandatory should be included in the headline price but that might be a step too far.
- mholm 2y ago
  Many restaurants have tried this, and end up switching back because comparing prices to other restaurants puts them at a disadvantage. I think the only way for it to happen is regulation that forces it. Might as well include taxes in that price too.
  - uxp100 2y ago
    Staff often doesn’t like it either. Probably some combination of actually making less money and being overly optimistic about what they would be making if they were getting tips. a bar I was aware of that advertised paying $20+ and hour with no tips switched to a tipped model due to staff complaints.
    - ruined 2y ago
      it sounds like what happened is management simply did not replace the tipped wage with an appropriate flat wage. if management provided a satisfactory wage, nobody would complain.
    - bobthepanda 2y ago
      there would be a rough transition period, but i do believe that in countries where tipping is not the norm, places just pay more to get better stuff the way non-tipped labor already works. one of the breweries i live by recently moved from non-tipped to tip, and it's generally a disliked change from what I hear because most of the time the brewery is open it's not busy enough to make up for the loss in wages, and then people fight over the really busy shifts.
    - datavirtue 2y ago
      The best employees complain loudly. End of discussion on that one.
- parineum 2y ago
  The trouble is that sales tax can be different in every municipality. National advertising would be a nightmare. However, I think prices at brick and mortar stores should be tax included and, when shopping online, if my address is known, the tax should be include as well. I also think "plus Tax/Tax included" should be featured more prominently but I think that businesses would likely do that themselves given the conditions above so that, when comparing prices, you would very noticeably see that whether tax was included or not in your price. ie, Amazon would put in green letters near the price "Tax included" so when I compared their price to another place I would know why Amazon's price might be higher.
deanputney 2y ago
Taxes should also be included in the advertised price, then. Just imagine!
- Kon-Peki 2y ago
  That would be nice, but there is a LOT of background work before that is feasible (in the US). As it currently stands, for many products a vendor would need to know who you are and where you live before they could quote you a total price. That's unacceptable.
  - perfectstorm 2y ago
    other countries have figured that out even countries with multiple levels of taxation like in the U.S. it's not an unsolvable problem.
    - Kon-Peki 2y ago
      > not an unsolvable problem I never said it was. In fact, I specifically said that there is work to do before making the rule about listing all prices inclusive of taxes.
      - perfectstorm 2y ago
        but you did say that figuring out the final price is "unacceptable"? why is it unacceptable? my point is that other countries have figured out a way to display the final prices, but USA still hasn't figured out how to do it or they don't have any plans to do it.
        Kon-Peki 2y ago
        As things stand currently, it would be unacceptably intrusive as you have to collect information on all shoppers whether they purchase or not. Do the pre-work first, and then make a rule about displaying the final price.
  - 2y ago
hansvm 2y ago
Interestingly, in some states it's illegal to post the "price" as one including all applicable taxes.
- red_trumpet 2y ago
  Do you mean states of the USA or states as in "country"? Which ones?
  - hansvm 2y ago
    I meant states of the USA. It looks like it's not as bad as it used to be (time for me to read a few more laws I guess). A decade ago WA prohibited the practice. I'm not sure where it might currently be illegal.
- pirate787 2y ago
  I mentioned the reason in another comment, it's an important govt transparency principle that the tax burden be separate and visible.
  - hansvm 2y ago
    Yes, but much like cigarette lobbying, you want to look at who's paying for the given outcome. We have cigarette minimum prices because it increases profits for tobacco companies, and we have this fraudulent price reporting nonsense because lower advertised prices result in more sales. Transparency could just as easily be achieved via a tax breakdown on the receipts merchants are already required to provide on request, while correctly advertising what the consumer will actually pay.

the_svd_doctor 2y ago

For plane that's pretty unfair. If you don't get any ancillary fees, the price you see is almost exactly up to the cent what you pay. Now if you get any extra, sure. But that's a different problem from Airbnb hiding 100% of the cost in mandatory cleaning fees.

danaris 2y ago
The trouble is, without some overriding authority defining what it means to "have a plane ticket", what counts as "included"? Because anything that doesn't can then be considered an "add-on". Carry-on luggage. Meal/snack and beverage service. A pillow and blanket. A seat that's not a middle seat. Even the ability to choose your seat at all. Airlines that want to tighten the screws on their passengers can, in theory, start charging for all of those, and calling them "paid add-ons", even under a "no junk fees" law, if we don't clearly define what passengers should be able to expect to be included in their ticket.
- the_svd_doctor 2y ago
  I get you. AFAICT what's included for airlines is basically "get me from A to B". There are usually ways to filter out by seat types, though, both on airlines websites and in places like Google flights. In my experience those are also pretty accurate.
- alkonaut 2y ago
  The comparison price for flights should be normalized. Like for example including either a carry on luggage or a checked in bag but not necessarily both, and no reserved seat. If some even cheaper airline wants to sell tickets without carry on or whatever then they’ll have to list the higher price and offer a pleasant surprise of a lower-than-advertised price when the customer completed the booking.
- testfoobar 2y ago
  There are some completely new and wacky fee structures though. I recently flew Avelo airlines - baggage fees were a function of when I paid - rising as I got closer to the flight date.

conradev 2y ago

California did this: > Guests in California will see a fee-inclusive total price—before taxes—on all listings. https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/3610 https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/3610 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202320240SB478 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml...

rootusrootus 2y ago
> before taxes Now they just need to fix that part.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- darkhelmet 2y ago
  Right up front: I agree. But, implementing this will be an absolute PITA because so many other things are systemically broken. Case in point: cost breakdown from the invoice of an online order a few months ago (with the dollar amounts removed): > Subtotal > Shipping (Economy) > Tax (Solano County Tax 0.25%) > Tax (Vacaville City Tax 0.75%) > Tax (Solano County District Tax Sp 0.125%) > Tax (Solano Co Local Tax Sl 1.0%) > Tax (California State Tax 6.0%) Once your address is known taxes can be calculated. At what point is an after-tax final price to be shown? On an ad? On a targeted Ad? Once you reach the storefront based on unreliable geolocation? (which would be wrong for me, because geolocation bundles two cities here together as one) Once you create an account? At the checkout when you've specified the shipping address? As things tend to happen today, its usually only at the last step. As much as I'd like to see it, I don't see much chance of improving the visibility of final prices without comprehensive systemic tax reform first. The obvious quick solutions aren't exactly fair in the current US system. Imagine a "quick fix" of requiring the vendors to price in-a generic taxes for everyone. Just like with credit card system fees, "simple" fixes like that that benefit the residents of high-sales-tax states to the detriment of no-sales-tax state residents. While such a system would work for physical stores, they would get hammered if they had to prices on the shelves or signs that were higher than online prices. As much as we all want a fair straight-forward system, I don't imagine it happening any time soon in the US. There are way too many unresolved zero-sum political fights and ideological differences standing in the way. It certainly can be done (eg: Australia) but the circumstances there were very different.

colechristensen 2y ago

The Minnesota law which provides exactly this goes into effect in 2025. https://www.allaboutadvertisinglaw.com/2024/06/minnesota-joins-the-fee-fray-with-a-twist-on-variable-pricing.html https://www.allaboutadvertisinglaw.com/2024/06/minnesota-joi...

alkonaut 2y ago
Wanted to see if it finally included taxes on price tags… but instead this law explicitly excludes taxes. So close.
- scottyah 2y ago
  The government needs to provide a service if we ever want taxes to be included. Taxes vary by city and can even depend on where you live, so sellers wouldn't be able to give you a price until you say where you are and where you're from for some sales. That's why you basically need a third party if you run an ecommerce website, unless you have a team to track down every time a county or city changes their taxes.
  - alkonaut 2y ago
    You could exclude prices on preprinted tags and just regulate shelve pricing and store signs I guess.
  - colechristensen 2y ago
    >That's why you basically need a third party if you run an ecommerce website, unless you have a team to track down every time a county or city changes their taxes. Every ecommerce site already has to calculate taxes on checkout, already has a third party for this information (usually the payment processor).

enragedcacti 2y ago

I have good news! (as long as Lina Khan stays on as commissioner) > FTC Proposes Rule to Ban Junk Fees: The proposed rule would ban businesses from running up the bills with hidden and bogus fees, ensure consumers know exactly how much they are paying and what they are getting, and help spur companies to compete on offering the lowest price. Businesses would have to include all mandatory fees when telling consumers a price https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/10/ftc-proposes-rule-ban-junk-fees https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/10/...

r00fus 2y ago
> (as long as Lina Khan stays on as commissioner) She may not be around for long (a travesty in my opinion if so). Neither presidential candidate is stumping for her kind of activism, even the Dem one. And the big money wants her gone. Sure we can vote, but it seems big money has more influence regardless.
- saturn8601 2y ago
  While the candidates may not like her, support for her crosses party lines and so there may be enough people to make a stink about it to make it politically unviable. I do concede that both candidates are just terrible on this.
- enragedcacti 2y ago
  > Neither presidential candidate is stumping for her kind of activism, even the Dem one Harris hasn't outright said she would keep on Khan, but from a policy perspective I think they are very aligned, even to the point of Harris copying Khan's homework a bit (not in a bad way, just interesting). They have both explicitly called out grocery revenue growth exceeding total costs, both want to go after PBMs to lower drug prices, both want to go after junk fees, both have come out against algorithmic rent pricing, both have called out misclassification of workers. If Harris does want to keep her on I still don't think it's in either of their interests for Harris to stake out a position. It opens the Harris campaign up to attacks on Khan's many court setbacks and erodes whatever bipartisan support Khan still has. Also, Harris doesn't have to do anything to keep her on, if she doesn't appoint anyone then by law Khan will remain acting commissioner indefinitely.

HDThoreaun 2y ago

Plane tickets legally have to include all required fees. I do not pay any more than google flights shows.

adrr 2y ago

Plane tickets show you all included price including taxes/fee. It was part of 2012 regulation requiring full fare disclosure passed in 2012. Telecom/Internet providers ares ones that need to be fixed because companies like Verizon will charge you bogus "taxes" like a network portability tax which isn't a tax and they pocket the money.

FireBeyond 2y ago
Even then, there's other challenges. With Delta, booking a flight, I see a rough return airfare when I select my outbound leg, that then might be tweaked by my inbound leg choices. Booking with Alaska, I get a fare listed that is only the outbound leg, and then I have to discover the inbound leg price. This often gives the impression that fares are or will be cheaper with Alaska, and then after a few clicks, you realize that they're (mostly) the "same".

ccorcos 2y ago

There’s actually a way to do this currently: https://jake.tl/notes/2022-05-how-to-airbnb https://jake.tl/notes/2022-05-how-to-airbnb