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Hard in this camp too. The OS tinkering that is as requirement of Linux racks up a massive time investment. When you use your computer for work, that bill gets

Hard in this camp too. The OS tinkering that is as requirement of Linux racks up a massive time investment. When you use your computer for work, that bill gets big quick and sometimes it's an inconvenience you just can't afford. MacOS, for all it's faults, can be tamed with little snitch and a slower update cycle, and then you have a relatively solid system. There's still some things to hate, like when I take my airpods out if I accidentally click one of the buttons Apple Music opens (no one wants to use Apple Music, ever). But, that little frustraition pales in comparison to the build your own experience a poweruser in Linux faces on a weekly basis. This randomly came front of mind last night when I thought, I can't remember the last time something broke on my laptop. It's been literal months since I've had anything weird or unwanted that I've _had_ to deal with. Contrast that to the last time I tried to daily Linux, about 2 years ago when I bought a framework and couldn't even log in due to trackpad issues, sleep / hibernate issues, screen resizing issues, issues issues issues.

vundercind 2y ago
I have plenty of complaints about Apple’s stuff, but my consistent experience when I try to use something else, for the last decade+, is that I’m jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. Even goes for things like Shield vs Apple TV. I very much wish they had one or more peers putting them under pressure to do better, but the (tiny—which is likely part of the problem) set of competitors seem to have other priorities than chasing the particular market that Apple does.
ActorNightly 2y ago
I don't get why people still spread the lie that you have to tinker with Linux. Like right now, I can give you a laptop with a clean Linux Mint install, and you never have to touch the terminal for anything system config to do work. Seriously, its not that hard to say that you prefer MacOS because you like the feel of it. It does a lot of handholding for you, unlike Linux, which makes it way less likely for you to mess something up. You don't have to go the extra lengths to justify it lol.
- mh- 2y ago
  > I don't get why people still spread the lie that you have to tinker with Linux. It doesn't feel charitable to call people sharing their experience "spreading the lie". You're all over this thread talking to people that way. If you're trying to make the case that desktop Linux no longer has this characteristic, this isn't the way to go about it.
- aunty_helen 2y ago
  I’ll put this out there, currently there’s no better platform than macOS on apple silicon for developing ai systems. I’m not a stranger to Linux or the command line. I own, use, configure servers as part of my business, including the dreaded on metal cuda install. In fact, the terminal integration in macOS is one of the biggest things over windows for me. But, every time I try linux desktop, for the past 20 years, it’s been a horrible time sink and has driven home the point that building a competent and most importantly consistent gui based os is harder than everyone gives it credit for. I stopped using Linux mint after installing it on my desktop and having the screen saver require a hard reboot -sometimes- when trying to wake.
  - ActorNightly 2y ago
    >there’s no better platform than macOS on apple silicon for developing ai systems. Lmao WHAT? The ANE system isn't even remotely useful, since is primarily designed for running Apple AI stuff. This is why its integration is so spotty. IIRC, Tinygrad is faster on apple silicon than pytorch at this moment, solely because they did a whole bunch of reverse engineering. Laptops for ML is just a lost cause as far as matrix multiply is concerned. Nobody is actually doing any serious work on ML stuff on laptops. >In fact, the terminal integration in macOS is one of the biggest things over windows for me. Which is funny, because Windows has WSL2 which works incredibly well, has native CUDA integration for ML tasks thats quite good, has an X server that lets you run GUI apps, and is actually linux (not BSD), without anything to get in your way, and its better because its an isolated system that you don't have to worry about bricking and not having a usable computer. > stopped using Linux mint after installing it on my desktop and having the screen saver require a hard reboot -sometimes- when trying to wake. The standard argument of "here is a particular bug that doesn't exist on Macs, therefore Macs are better" lol. Like I said, its not really that difficult to say that you just prefer the Mac OS experience and end it there. You don't have to go on these weird tangents.
consteval 2y ago
The reason you have to tinker with MacOS and not Linux is because you're fine with how MaxOS is set up. So you waste your time in Linux getting it to behave like MacOS. Obviously if you go into it with the assumption MacOS is correct and the more like MacOS you are, the better, then Linux distros will fail horribly. People do this with Windows, too. If you go into it expecting Windows-isms you're gonna be very disappointed. And such "isms" aren't actually good at all - usually they suck. But because you already know them, they aren't "isms" anymore, they're now expectations. If you go back to the very first few times you used MacOS (or OSX at the time), you'll realize there was a lot of shit that surprised you. You adapted, and in some cases have actually come to PREFER functionality that sucks. And now you expect it, and that's the problem.
- aunty_helen 2y ago
  I had macos forced on me when I joined a company writing forex software. You’re right, it sucked learning all the different keyboard shortcuts, learning to use an extra modifier key (now one of my favorite things) and just little things like double clicking a file renames it :/ I thought it was crazy using the butter knife (from the meme) to write serious software. Previously I was a windows admin at a 500 computer site and dealt with Microsoft, debugging issues in their kernel. Throughout this time I’ve also use Linux extensively from Ubuntu when it came with pc mags to raspberry pi home security projects to servers and boxes. I even compiled gentoo one time for fun. I have enough experience to know the differences between all of the operating systems from ‘95 through to 22.04LTS. No, macOS can’t be beaten for desktop experience, except for gaming which is now starting to come around also. Happy to die on this hill.
  - vundercind 2y ago
    The modifier key choice is (among popular solutions) simply correct. I had twoish decades of Windows/Linux shortcuts in my head so it took a few months to get comfortable with a Mac keyboard, but it’s simply better. The cmd key location is excellent, you can feel how much less strain there is in your hand hitting cmd+c vs ctrl-c, and your fingers aren’t pulled away from the home row. Between that and not conflicting with terminal signal shortcuts, it’s the right way to do it (among common choices, anyway—I’m sure someone out there has some custom solution that’s better). It’s weirdly hard to get Linux to use that keyboard layout and shortcut set, which is a shame. There’s demand for it, and some attempts to make it happen, but it must be really tough to achieve. Their default English layout is also easily the best of the major options I’ve seen, as far as simply typing English-language text goes. I don’t get why other platforms don’t clone it and use it for their default. No way it can be covered by patents, I think it’s been mostly the same since before OSX. Linux has one alternative layout that’s close to as good, but never seems to be the default English keyboard, for some reason—you have to know you want it.
itsoktocry 2y ago
>The OS tinkering that is as requirement of Linux racks up a massive time investment. Huh, strange. I install Ubuntu as a daily driver on every system in my house and don't have to do any tinkering outside of customizations I want (which I have more freedom to do). I mean, I understand there are certain proprietary devices or software that are going to require Windows or MacOS, and that's unfortunate. But the idea that everything is breaking all the time? I just don't see it.
smm11 2y ago
I switch between OS X and Ubuntu a few times a year, and the only difference is that I have to restart Ubuntu far more often than OS X. All I run is a browser, text editor and terminal, so functionally it doesn't matter one bit.

vundercind 2y ago

I have plenty of complaints about Apple’s stuff, but my consistent experience when I try to use something else, for the last decade+, is that I’m jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. Even goes for things like Shield vs Apple TV. I very much wish they had one or more peers putting them under pressure to do better, but the (tiny—which is likely part of the problem) set of competitors seem to have other priorities than chasing the particular market that Apple does.

ActorNightly 2y ago

I don't get why people still spread the lie that you have to tinker with Linux. Like right now, I can give you a laptop with a clean Linux Mint install, and you never have to touch the terminal for anything system config to do work. Seriously, its not that hard to say that you prefer MacOS because you like the feel of it. It does a lot of handholding for you, unlike Linux, which makes it way less likely for you to mess something up. You don't have to go the extra lengths to justify it lol.

mh- 2y ago
> I don't get why people still spread the lie that you have to tinker with Linux. It doesn't feel charitable to call people sharing their experience "spreading the lie". You're all over this thread talking to people that way. If you're trying to make the case that desktop Linux no longer has this characteristic, this isn't the way to go about it.
aunty_helen 2y ago
I’ll put this out there, currently there’s no better platform than macOS on apple silicon for developing ai systems. I’m not a stranger to Linux or the command line. I own, use, configure servers as part of my business, including the dreaded on metal cuda install. In fact, the terminal integration in macOS is one of the biggest things over windows for me. But, every time I try linux desktop, for the past 20 years, it’s been a horrible time sink and has driven home the point that building a competent and most importantly consistent gui based os is harder than everyone gives it credit for. I stopped using Linux mint after installing it on my desktop and having the screen saver require a hard reboot -sometimes- when trying to wake.
- ActorNightly 2y ago
  >there’s no better platform than macOS on apple silicon for developing ai systems. Lmao WHAT? The ANE system isn't even remotely useful, since is primarily designed for running Apple AI stuff. This is why its integration is so spotty. IIRC, Tinygrad is faster on apple silicon than pytorch at this moment, solely because they did a whole bunch of reverse engineering. Laptops for ML is just a lost cause as far as matrix multiply is concerned. Nobody is actually doing any serious work on ML stuff on laptops. >In fact, the terminal integration in macOS is one of the biggest things over windows for me. Which is funny, because Windows has WSL2 which works incredibly well, has native CUDA integration for ML tasks thats quite good, has an X server that lets you run GUI apps, and is actually linux (not BSD), without anything to get in your way, and its better because its an isolated system that you don't have to worry about bricking and not having a usable computer. > stopped using Linux mint after installing it on my desktop and having the screen saver require a hard reboot -sometimes- when trying to wake. The standard argument of "here is a particular bug that doesn't exist on Macs, therefore Macs are better" lol. Like I said, its not really that difficult to say that you just prefer the Mac OS experience and end it there. You don't have to go on these weird tangents.

consteval 2y ago

The reason you have to tinker with MacOS and not Linux is because you're fine with how MaxOS is set up. So you waste your time in Linux getting it to behave like MacOS. Obviously if you go into it with the assumption MacOS is correct and the more like MacOS you are, the better, then Linux distros will fail horribly. People do this with Windows, too. If you go into it expecting Windows-isms you're gonna be very disappointed. And such "isms" aren't actually good at all - usually they suck. But because you already know them, they aren't "isms" anymore, they're now expectations. If you go back to the very first few times you used MacOS (or OSX at the time), you'll realize there was a lot of shit that surprised you. You adapted, and in some cases have actually come to PREFER functionality that sucks. And now you expect it, and that's the problem.

aunty_helen 2y ago
I had macos forced on me when I joined a company writing forex software. You’re right, it sucked learning all the different keyboard shortcuts, learning to use an extra modifier key (now one of my favorite things) and just little things like double clicking a file renames it :/ I thought it was crazy using the butter knife (from the meme) to write serious software. Previously I was a windows admin at a 500 computer site and dealt with Microsoft, debugging issues in their kernel. Throughout this time I’ve also use Linux extensively from Ubuntu when it came with pc mags to raspberry pi home security projects to servers and boxes. I even compiled gentoo one time for fun. I have enough experience to know the differences between all of the operating systems from ‘95 through to 22.04LTS. No, macOS can’t be beaten for desktop experience, except for gaming which is now starting to come around also. Happy to die on this hill.
- vundercind 2y ago
  The modifier key choice is (among popular solutions) simply correct. I had twoish decades of Windows/Linux shortcuts in my head so it took a few months to get comfortable with a Mac keyboard, but it’s simply better. The cmd key location is excellent, you can feel how much less strain there is in your hand hitting cmd+c vs ctrl-c, and your fingers aren’t pulled away from the home row. Between that and not conflicting with terminal signal shortcuts, it’s the right way to do it (among common choices, anyway—I’m sure someone out there has some custom solution that’s better). It’s weirdly hard to get Linux to use that keyboard layout and shortcut set, which is a shame. There’s demand for it, and some attempts to make it happen, but it must be really tough to achieve. Their default English layout is also easily the best of the major options I’ve seen, as far as simply typing English-language text goes. I don’t get why other platforms don’t clone it and use it for their default. No way it can be covered by patents, I think it’s been mostly the same since before OSX. Linux has one alternative layout that’s close to as good, but never seems to be the default English keyboard, for some reason—you have to know you want it.

itsoktocry 2y ago

>The OS tinkering that is as requirement of Linux racks up a massive time investment. Huh, strange. I install Ubuntu as a daily driver on every system in my house and don't have to do any tinkering outside of customizations I want (which I have more freedom to do). I mean, I understand there are certain proprietary devices or software that are going to require Windows or MacOS, and that's unfortunate. But the idea that everything is breaking all the time? I just don't see it.

smm11 2y ago

I switch between OS X and Ubuntu a few times a year, and the only difference is that I have to restart Ubuntu far more often than OS X. All I run is a browser, text editor and terminal, so functionally it doesn't matter one bit.