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This feels like one of those things that could be solved on the payment end with something like a unique payment ID for each subscription, rather than giving a

This feels like one of those things that could be solved on the payment end with something like a unique payment ID for each subscription, rather than giving a CC number. Then you just enable or disable payment IDs (perhaps for a limited time, e.g., "create a payment ID that works for Netflix for the next three months but not after that"), rather than relying on vendors to decide whether they feel like charging you or not.

AdamJacobMuller 2y ago
privacy.com
ajkjk 2y ago
My understanding is that under the hood this does happen, but in the company's favor-some memberships will survive your credit card changing? There was a patio11 article about it which I can't find at the moment. (edit: maybe not. maybe it was a tweet? in any case I remember it being a thing)
- 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
  I have never(?) updated my Netflix billing information, but I know it has survived many new cards/numbers. Which feels like it defeats the purpose of getting a new generated card.
  - ajkjk 2y ago
    well, the idea is that you have a contract with them and that determines the money you owe, not the actual card. There's some mechanism under the hood to update the recurring subscription to use your new card when it changes.
    - 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
      Well then they can go after me to get their money were I to fall behind. Not that they get a permanent linkage to my account.
datadrivenangel 2y ago
The problem, is that not paying does not get you out of the legal obligation to pay. Most companies won't follow up because the cost isn't worth it, but there are definitely organizations that will go after you or sell your debts to collection agencies... The marginal cost to a gym/ISP of the remaining duration of your contract is basically zero, especially if you're not going to use it, and they can get a few more dollars by being a jackass about it. In aggregate the incentives dominate.
- _hcuq 2y ago
  Yes. The problem is the current law. Which needs to be changed. Make these predatory contracts illegal.
  - conradev 2y ago
    I don't think these sorts of contracts should be illegal. I think a lot of things around them should be, like gyms requiring you to go in-person to cancel, or offering a terrible phone service to cancel, or marketing it deceptively such that you were unaware it was a contract. But getting a discount in exchange for a longer-term commitment is often a benefit to consumers. I just paid Visible for a year of cellular service up front and it was far cheaper than paying monthly – truly a great deal. I was able to front that money now, but if I paid a slightly higher per-month price in exchange for a year contract, that would be the same but with less money required up front.
    - cogman10 2y ago
      There are contracts that are basically impossible to terminate and offer basically no benefit to anyone, timeshares is a key example of it. A problem with our contract law is that if you get anything out of a contract it becomes really hard to terminate if the terms don't allow for it (a peppercorn). With contracts now being written in dense legalese with multiple pages of terms and conditions, it's not really feasible to expect the common contractor to have a full understanding of exactly what they are signing up for.
kibwen 2y ago
A number of credit card companies offer virtual card numbers that you can generate to avoid giving out your real number. I agree that it should be more normalized, widespread, and automatic, but it is already possible to start doing this today.
- rachofsunshine 2y ago
  Yeah, I was thinking of what I could do with a company Brex card - but I can't with my personal CC, at least not directly through my bank (though as others note apparently Google Pay does this now).
- pbhjpbhj 2y ago
  A problem mentioned is that whilst this cuts off the payment, in law it may not remove the liability to pay, so the company could in future chase you for the payments.
  - cvalka 2y ago
    They never do that
- HDThoreaun 2y ago
  Companies can still send your debt to collections. For this strategy to truly work you can never give the company your real identity.
DowagerDave 2y ago
you're describing virtual credit cards with controls, like amount, vendor, time of month, etc. it's an awesome service that limits your widespread exposure to one company vs. everyone you've every bought anything from.
astura 2y ago
You can do this with PayPal, Google Play, and privacy.com. Probably others too, these are just the ones I've used. The thing is that sometimes you need to actually cancel the service, not just stop paying for it, to remove your financial obligations. Depending on the contract you signed.
- Brybry 2y ago
  PayPal is not great at it. I assume you mean the settings->payments->automatic payments (https://www.paypal.com/myaccount/autopay/ https://www.paypal.com/myaccount/autopay/) feature. Last year I had a company (DomainsPricedRight/OwnMyDomain aka GoDaddy) that I last did business (a one time purchase) with 18 years prior (2005), bill me under a new "subscription" with no input on my part. PayPal sort of allows you to prevent that but it seems only with companies you have recently done business with. PayPal did do a good job of email notification of the automatic payment and cancelling the "subscription" but there is no easy way to reverse the fraudulent payment, so in the end the consumer still gets burned for profit (it was only $1 but how many people had $1 stolen?)
  - FireBeyond 2y ago
    Agreed, I had similar where I had signed up for a trial with a subscription, sure, and then went to cancel. "This can be done by 'manage payments' in PayPal." or similar. This existed, but the subscription was not there. But sure enough, it got charged. They did reverse it at least, but was more painful than it had to be.
dspillett 2y ago
It isn't something I've seen advertised by credit card companies here (UK) but in the US at least some offer virtual cards whereby you can give different vendors a specific virtual card and cancel that if they don't stop taking payments when you want them to. As much as I'm not a big fan of PayPal¹ I use that rather than separate credit card payments/subs for online purchases including subs for things like hosting accounts. Stopping a payment from their web UI seems like it would be easier than arranging a chargeback or calling the CC company to put a block on future payments, and it reduces the number of companies that I hand my credit card details too. When I cancel a service I make sure that the sub is cancelled there as well. I always follow the cancellation procedure at the other end too, unless it is obnoxiously bothersome, as just cancelling the payment method feels like I'm being dickish². ---- [1] I'm not sure that I'd risk a business account with them, and I hardly ever keep a balance there, due to the many stories of accounts being frozen for long periods with litle reason and inadequate review. [2] You might argue that often they'd be more than happy to be dickish, hence the cancellation procedures, but I prefer not to stoop to that level whether they would or not.
- pbhjpbhj 2y ago
  My PayPal story (in short, search my comments if you want more detail) - I bought a cheap game (<£5) on Steam. The game was broken, Steam wouldn't refund and so broke UK Consumer Rights Act. I contacted PayPal, who opened a case, according to their agreement with Steam (which I'm not party to). PayPal found Steam to be in breach of their agreement (PayPal & Steam's). I was refunded. Then Steam enacted petty revenge against me, and continue to do so. PayPal acted laudibly, imo, but there seems to be nothing one can then do about any revenge a company might take against a customer. A hypothetical might be that you return damaged goods to Amazon, then they refuse to sell to you in the future because you demanded your legal rights. A computer retailer appears to have done similar. I had to return goods to them that were broken on arrival; they refunded, but closed my account (I have assumed that this was because of the refund request). They do have a general right to drop a customer, or refuse service (outside of protected characteristics) but it seems wrong that "making a reasonable demand in view of legislation" (a device was broken when it arrived) is apparently an allowable reason for refusal of future service.
620gelato 2y ago
India basically has this - when creating subscriptions, merchants typically create "mandates" which specify max amount permitted per month, frequency, and duration. Afterwards, 1) if per month amount is greater than a regulated threshold, manual confirmation is needed. [ This is friction ] , 2) cancelling can be as simple as going to your bank's website and deleting the "mandate". In all honesty, this is probably a really balanced approach, but the roll out was a real pain, with banks and merchants collaborating on who supports whom, etc. International payments got screwed completely - to this day, I can't subscribe to nytimes, after almost 2.5 years of this. (A good summary - https://support.stripe.com/questions/rbi-e-mandate-regulations-context-and-faqs https://support.stripe.com/questions/rbi-e-mandate-regulatio... )

AdamJacobMuller 2y ago

privacy.com

ajkjk 2y ago

My understanding is that under the hood this does happen, but in the company's favor-some memberships will survive your credit card changing? There was a patio11 article about it which I can't find at the moment. (edit: maybe not. maybe it was a tweet? in any case I remember it being a thing)

0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
I have never(?) updated my Netflix billing information, but I know it has survived many new cards/numbers. Which feels like it defeats the purpose of getting a new generated card.
- ajkjk 2y ago
  well, the idea is that you have a contract with them and that determines the money you owe, not the actual card. There's some mechanism under the hood to update the recurring subscription to use your new card when it changes.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
    Well then they can go after me to get their money were I to fall behind. Not that they get a permanent linkage to my account.

datadrivenangel 2y ago

The problem, is that not paying does not get you out of the legal obligation to pay. Most companies won't follow up because the cost isn't worth it, but there are definitely organizations that will go after you or sell your debts to collection agencies... The marginal cost to a gym/ISP of the remaining duration of your contract is basically zero, especially if you're not going to use it, and they can get a few more dollars by being a jackass about it. In aggregate the incentives dominate.

_hcuq 2y ago
Yes. The problem is the current law. Which needs to be changed. Make these predatory contracts illegal.
- conradev 2y ago
  I don't think these sorts of contracts should be illegal. I think a lot of things around them should be, like gyms requiring you to go in-person to cancel, or offering a terrible phone service to cancel, or marketing it deceptively such that you were unaware it was a contract. But getting a discount in exchange for a longer-term commitment is often a benefit to consumers. I just paid Visible for a year of cellular service up front and it was far cheaper than paying monthly – truly a great deal. I was able to front that money now, but if I paid a slightly higher per-month price in exchange for a year contract, that would be the same but with less money required up front.
  - cogman10 2y ago
    There are contracts that are basically impossible to terminate and offer basically no benefit to anyone, timeshares is a key example of it. A problem with our contract law is that if you get anything out of a contract it becomes really hard to terminate if the terms don't allow for it (a peppercorn). With contracts now being written in dense legalese with multiple pages of terms and conditions, it's not really feasible to expect the common contractor to have a full understanding of exactly what they are signing up for.

kibwen 2y ago

A number of credit card companies offer virtual card numbers that you can generate to avoid giving out your real number. I agree that it should be more normalized, widespread, and automatic, but it is already possible to start doing this today.

rachofsunshine 2y ago
Yeah, I was thinking of what I could do with a company Brex card - but I can't with my personal CC, at least not directly through my bank (though as others note apparently Google Pay does this now).
pbhjpbhj 2y ago
A problem mentioned is that whilst this cuts off the payment, in law it may not remove the liability to pay, so the company could in future chase you for the payments.
- cvalka 2y ago
  They never do that
HDThoreaun 2y ago
Companies can still send your debt to collections. For this strategy to truly work you can never give the company your real identity.

DowagerDave 2y ago

you're describing virtual credit cards with controls, like amount, vendor, time of month, etc. it's an awesome service that limits your widespread exposure to one company vs. everyone you've every bought anything from.

astura 2y ago

You can do this with PayPal, Google Play, and privacy.com. Probably others too, these are just the ones I've used. The thing is that sometimes you need to actually cancel the service, not just stop paying for it, to remove your financial obligations. Depending on the contract you signed.

Brybry 2y ago
PayPal is not great at it. I assume you mean the settings->payments->automatic payments (https://www.paypal.com/myaccount/autopay/ https://www.paypal.com/myaccount/autopay/) feature. Last year I had a company (DomainsPricedRight/OwnMyDomain aka GoDaddy) that I last did business (a one time purchase) with 18 years prior (2005), bill me under a new "subscription" with no input on my part. PayPal sort of allows you to prevent that but it seems only with companies you have recently done business with. PayPal did do a good job of email notification of the automatic payment and cancelling the "subscription" but there is no easy way to reverse the fraudulent payment, so in the end the consumer still gets burned for profit (it was only $1 but how many people had $1 stolen?)
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  Agreed, I had similar where I had signed up for a trial with a subscription, sure, and then went to cancel. "This can be done by 'manage payments' in PayPal." or similar. This existed, but the subscription was not there. But sure enough, it got charged. They did reverse it at least, but was more painful than it had to be.

dspillett 2y ago

It isn't something I've seen advertised by credit card companies here (UK) but in the US at least some offer virtual cards whereby you can give different vendors a specific virtual card and cancel that if they don't stop taking payments when you want them to. As much as I'm not a big fan of PayPal¹ I use that rather than separate credit card payments/subs for online purchases including subs for things like hosting accounts. Stopping a payment from their web UI seems like it would be easier than arranging a chargeback or calling the CC company to put a block on future payments, and it reduces the number of companies that I hand my credit card details too. When I cancel a service I make sure that the sub is cancelled there as well. I always follow the cancellation procedure at the other end too, unless it is obnoxiously bothersome, as just cancelling the payment method feels like I'm being dickish². ---- [1] I'm not sure that I'd risk a business account with them, and I hardly ever keep a balance there, due to the many stories of accounts being frozen for long periods with litle reason and inadequate review. [2] You might argue that often they'd be more than happy to be dickish, hence the cancellation procedures, but I prefer not to stoop to that level whether they would or not.

pbhjpbhj 2y ago
My PayPal story (in short, search my comments if you want more detail) - I bought a cheap game (<£5) on Steam. The game was broken, Steam wouldn't refund and so broke UK Consumer Rights Act. I contacted PayPal, who opened a case, according to their agreement with Steam (which I'm not party to). PayPal found Steam to be in breach of their agreement (PayPal & Steam's). I was refunded. Then Steam enacted petty revenge against me, and continue to do so. PayPal acted laudibly, imo, but there seems to be nothing one can then do about any revenge a company might take against a customer. A hypothetical might be that you return damaged goods to Amazon, then they refuse to sell to you in the future because you demanded your legal rights. A computer retailer appears to have done similar. I had to return goods to them that were broken on arrival; they refunded, but closed my account (I have assumed that this was because of the refund request). They do have a general right to drop a customer, or refuse service (outside of protected characteristics) but it seems wrong that "making a reasonable demand in view of legislation" (a device was broken when it arrived) is apparently an allowable reason for refusal of future service.

620gelato 2y ago

India basically has this - when creating subscriptions, merchants typically create "mandates" which specify max amount permitted per month, frequency, and duration. Afterwards, 1) if per month amount is greater than a regulated threshold, manual confirmation is needed. [ This is friction ] , 2) cancelling can be as simple as going to your bank's website and deleting the "mandate". In all honesty, this is probably a really balanced approach, but the roll out was a real pain, with banks and merchants collaborating on who supports whom, etc. International payments got screwed completely - to this day, I can't subscribe to nytimes, after almost 2.5 years of this. (A good summary - https://support.stripe.com/questions/rbi-e-mandate-regulations-context-and-faqs https://support.stripe.com/questions/rbi-e-mandate-regulatio... )