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The food is still microwaved on the ICE and presumably in other countries too, but the presentation is fantastic. The experience of eating in a proper restauran

The food is still microwaved on the ICE and presumably in other countries too, but the presentation is fantastic. The experience of eating in a proper restaurant while seeing the landscape roll by is amazing and while not all services need a restaurant or can support one I don't expect restaurants to go away. More automation might mean more people can work on the presentation of the food while the kitchen can take up less space which should overall improve the economics of the onboard eating experience.

bobthepanda 2y ago
Airplanes have the “serve luxurious food with no space or kitchen” down to a T. One interesting case is Japan where a full dining car is a rarity and you’re expected to buy station meals when you depart.
- Aeolun 2y ago
  I think Japan Railways figured out that a car full of passengers is worth a lot more than a kitchen/restaurant for the other 11 cars.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    Exactly. It costs a lot of money to run a bullet train, and every seat is very valuable. They don't have space to waste on a kitchen or restaurant. They do sometimes have little food carts they'll push up and down the aisles that you can purchase meals from, though this depends on the route and time. Riding a shinkansen isn't like riding some old-time long-distance train in Europe or North America; it's basically just like riding in an airliner, but on the ground and without TSA and the seats have more legroom. It's all about speed and convenience, not luxury. There are, however, some luxury trains in Japan on some routes. They're not bullet trains though, and usually meant more for sightseeing travel.
    - malermeister 2y ago
      As a counterpoint, German ICEs are just as much of a bullet train as Shinkansen are and they have full dining cars. It might not actually be profitable, but it sure is sweet.
      - jhugo 2y ago
        Maybe not so relevant to the economics of a dining car, but I have to take issue with “just as much of a bullet train”. Shinkansen are proper high speed rail with dedicated tracks, top speeds of 320km/h, and high speeds (260km/h or higher) across basically the entire network. ICE trains run on the same lines used by slower services, and no train in Germany exceeds 300 km/h, with even that speed being attained only on quite small upgraded parts of the network. The European rail network most similar to Shinkansen would be TGV.
        bobthepanda 2y ago
        Spain is also pretty fast.
        welterde 2y ago
        That has very little to do with the ICE train itself though, which can do above 320 km/h just fine in regular service (on international connections though, since in Germany the global train speed limit is 300 km/h I believe). While the high-speed tracks in Germany are indeed quite a bit of a patch-work, there are over 1000 km of track certified for >= 250 km/h (as of 2015; quite a number of more lines got finished since then, but I could not find the updated number that included them) and by now really rather long corridors are very high-speed. The route from Munich (south of Germany) to Berlin is now mostly covered with upgraded routes for example. I think the 4 hours for that route are quite competitive to Shinkansen times. The fastest Shinkansen route (from the listed operating speed the only one that actually operates at 320 km/h; all others only operate at 260-300 km/h) is the Tōhoku Shinkansen line, which takes 3 hours and 20 minutes for the same distance traveled.
        2y ago
- bluGill 2y ago
  Railroads have nearly universally lost money on the dining car. In the 1880s they did it because it was a loss leader - people choose the train (vs carriage) for the nice meals - something they could do that the other travel options could not (it isn't clear if this made a difference but they thought it did). Station meals make far more sense in general - there is a lot more space to work with. You can also put multiple options (rent space to different restaurants) in a station. The only downside of this is you need enough flex so that people can get off when hungry eat and get on a different train (meaning both empty seats for them and multiple train options). Still trains have different economics from airplanes and should attempt to run no more than 70% full.
  - bobthepanda 2y ago
    Japanese ekiben split the difference since they are all take out boxes; and there are some pretty luxe ekiben.
  - Symbiote 2y ago
    I think hardly anyone would get off a train in order to eat, then get on a following train. At least in places like Japan and Europe, where a typical long journey is just a few hours. It would mean arriving an hour (or more) later at the destination. It's usually preferable to eat at the destination, or make do with eating on the train (in a dining car, snacks sold on-board, or something purchased at the station or brought from home).
    - bluGill 2y ago
      japan is small and europe doesn't do cross border rail well. I could see doing it onia boston to chicago trip (you have to get off in ny anyway) though really it only makes sense for trips where flying makes sense.
- MarcusE1W 2y ago
  The German Railway company DB often works with well known chefs who have also worked for aviation, often for Lufthansa, so they can benefit a bit from their experience.

bobthepanda 2y ago

Airplanes have the “serve luxurious food with no space or kitchen” down to a T. One interesting case is Japan where a full dining car is a rarity and you’re expected to buy station meals when you depart.

Aeolun 2y ago
I think Japan Railways figured out that a car full of passengers is worth a lot more than a kitchen/restaurant for the other 11 cars.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  Exactly. It costs a lot of money to run a bullet train, and every seat is very valuable. They don't have space to waste on a kitchen or restaurant. They do sometimes have little food carts they'll push up and down the aisles that you can purchase meals from, though this depends on the route and time. Riding a shinkansen isn't like riding some old-time long-distance train in Europe or North America; it's basically just like riding in an airliner, but on the ground and without TSA and the seats have more legroom. It's all about speed and convenience, not luxury. There are, however, some luxury trains in Japan on some routes. They're not bullet trains though, and usually meant more for sightseeing travel.
  - malermeister 2y ago
    As a counterpoint, German ICEs are just as much of a bullet train as Shinkansen are and they have full dining cars. It might not actually be profitable, but it sure is sweet.
    - jhugo 2y ago
      Maybe not so relevant to the economics of a dining car, but I have to take issue with “just as much of a bullet train”. Shinkansen are proper high speed rail with dedicated tracks, top speeds of 320km/h, and high speeds (260km/h or higher) across basically the entire network. ICE trains run on the same lines used by slower services, and no train in Germany exceeds 300 km/h, with even that speed being attained only on quite small upgraded parts of the network. The European rail network most similar to Shinkansen would be TGV.
      - bobthepanda 2y ago
        Spain is also pretty fast.
      - welterde 2y ago
        That has very little to do with the ICE train itself though, which can do above 320 km/h just fine in regular service (on international connections though, since in Germany the global train speed limit is 300 km/h I believe). While the high-speed tracks in Germany are indeed quite a bit of a patch-work, there are over 1000 km of track certified for >= 250 km/h (as of 2015; quite a number of more lines got finished since then, but I could not find the updated number that included them) and by now really rather long corridors are very high-speed. The route from Munich (south of Germany) to Berlin is now mostly covered with upgraded routes for example. I think the 4 hours for that route are quite competitive to Shinkansen times. The fastest Shinkansen route (from the listed operating speed the only one that actually operates at 320 km/h; all others only operate at 260-300 km/h) is the Tōhoku Shinkansen line, which takes 3 hours and 20 minutes for the same distance traveled.
        2y ago
bluGill 2y ago
Railroads have nearly universally lost money on the dining car. In the 1880s they did it because it was a loss leader - people choose the train (vs carriage) for the nice meals - something they could do that the other travel options could not (it isn't clear if this made a difference but they thought it did). Station meals make far more sense in general - there is a lot more space to work with. You can also put multiple options (rent space to different restaurants) in a station. The only downside of this is you need enough flex so that people can get off when hungry eat and get on a different train (meaning both empty seats for them and multiple train options). Still trains have different economics from airplanes and should attempt to run no more than 70% full.
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  Japanese ekiben split the difference since they are all take out boxes; and there are some pretty luxe ekiben.
- Symbiote 2y ago
  I think hardly anyone would get off a train in order to eat, then get on a following train. At least in places like Japan and Europe, where a typical long journey is just a few hours. It would mean arriving an hour (or more) later at the destination. It's usually preferable to eat at the destination, or make do with eating on the train (in a dining car, snacks sold on-board, or something purchased at the station or brought from home).
  - bluGill 2y ago
    japan is small and europe doesn't do cross border rail well. I could see doing it onia boston to chicago trip (you have to get off in ny anyway) though really it only makes sense for trips where flying makes sense.
MarcusE1W 2y ago
The German Railway company DB often works with well known chefs who have also worked for aviation, often for Lufthansa, so they can benefit a bit from their experience.