8 ms·

Bike Manufacturers Are Making Bikes Less Repairable

207 points by LorenDB 2y ago

ToucanLoucan 2y ago
Unregulated markets trend towards brand lock-ins, proprietary parts, cheaper goods of inferior quality, etc. etc. etc. All businesses are doing this everywhere because we are running out of World for them to expand into, but any company that posts a less profitable quarter is presumed to be failing. For centuries companies have chased the fantasy of infinite growth, and we're running out of room. If we don't start contending with this in a serious way, and applying changes to our society to accommodate it, we will only ever see more of this.
- nickff 2y ago
  There are lots of counter-examples to this, such as the market for microprocessors. Huge market, few regulations, excellent quality, remarkably low switching costs.
  - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
    "Huge" market? AMD and Intel. Technically Apple but they don't sell to OEM's, and of course bespoke processors for specific applications. It's huge in that it does a lot of business, but the market itself is incredibly small. If you want a processor for your next PC build, you have 2 flavors to pick from. Or a Mac.
    - nickff 2y ago
      You're ignoring all the non-desktop/laptop processors.
      - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
        That's true! So Qualcomm. Four whole firms, clearly invalidating my point.
        nickff 2y ago
        ST Micro, Microchip, Texas Instruments, NXP, etc.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
taeric 2y ago
Can't get past the intro sentence without getting triggered. No, most people cannot fix a bike. As evidenced by the horrid shape most bikes are in. Heaven help folks that get the brakes so that they need to replace pads. You are as often to see people that ruined rims as you are to see people that did that correctly. Don't get me wrong, there is something there. Everyone can be trained to fix older mechanical things. This is true. And I, for the life of me, cannot understand why people get bikes that need apps to run. That is just baffling. So, change this to "ebikes are not being designed with repairability in mind" and I think I lose near all of my complaint. I do have worries about people not realizing how powerful ebikes are. Reminds me of early dirt motorcycles you could work on back in the day. Didn't take too many kids getting hurt before people took those seriously, I don't think. Odd to see us go right back down that path all because a lot of parents assume the battery tech is the same as it was a decade or so ago.
- ThrowawayTestr 2y ago
  Unlike car maintenance bike maintenance is way more accessible. You need like one or two specialized tools to cover the majority of the work you'll do on your bike compared to a car. People are just lazy.
  - sidewndr46 2y ago
    Exactly what specialized tools do you need to work on a car? Are you counting closed end wrenches and sockets as "specialized" or something?
    - Ichthypresbyter 2y ago
      While it is technically a socket, an oil filter wrench is reasonably specialized in that you won't see it in a standard socket set. Same may be true of a spark plug socket depending on your car. Otherwise, doing routine/basic maintenance on a car, such as changing the oil, requires a means of getting under the car (ramps or jack and stands) and of handling large amounts of fluids (drain pan and funnel) neither of which you need to do the equivalent work on a bike. A torque wrench is much more important for car maintenance than for bike maintenance (and you'll need a bigger one!). Depending on the condition of your car you may want a breaker bar. Obviously doing anything with the suspension requires a spring compressor, and troubleshooting certain engine problems requires a compression tester, but those are needed infrequently enough that they can be rented or borrowed. And that's before getting into the model-specific specialized tools for something like a timing belt change, or anything electronic (though I recommend anyone with a car should get a cheap Bluetooth OBDII reader).
Micand 2y ago
I'm grateful that my 2019 Norco Section uses a round seatpost, threaded Shimano BB, and standard cockpit; I deplore the "self-adjusting" D-shaped Giant seatpost on my girlfriend's bike (which is subtly off-centre and takes all kinds of witchery to approximate the ease with which I can adjust a standard seatpost), as well as the mess of BBs and integrated cockpits that are becoming common even on mid-range road & gravel bikes. When I buy my next bike, I will go out of my way to select something using standardized parts. I very much hope something akin to the Framework laptop comes to market in cycling, where the entire machine is built to be user-serviceable with off-the-shelf, readily available parts. I put something like 20,000 km commuting to school on my early 1970s Raleigh Record, which I rebuilt almost completely with my brother, and it was a gloriously simple machine that I miss dearly today.
- bgribble 2y ago
  You can still buy bikes like that. There are plenty of people still making frame sets that will work with standard drive train components, standard sized stems, and plain ol handlebars in a variety of shapes. And they will build a bike for you. I bought a Rivendell about 10 years ago and it's probably my last bike. Is a steel frame heavier than carbon? Yes, a bit, but I don't have to throw it away after a crash, it rides like a dream, and the weight difference is less than the extra "water bottles" I carry around my midsection. Most of the weight of the bike+rider (which is what you have to haul around) is the rider, not the bike, and the frame is just a fraction of the weight of the bike! Even though new bikes are getting more and more proprietary, I don't foresee a time when I can't buy a new Shimano cassette or other replaceable parts.
  - aidenn0 2y ago
    It does seem like a complete bike that is under $1100 or so today will be less repairable than the bike I got in 2008 for $600 (less than $900 in 2024 dollars).
    - kjkjadksj 2y ago
      In some ways yes in other ways no. Shimano has been on their forced obsolescence train for 30 years. They don’t make hoods for my old 8spd levers. If I want to not deal with ratty old tape over sticky ancient hoods I need to drop $130 on new claris levers and $25 on a new fd because the pull ratio changed then another $20 on new bar tape.
soared 2y ago
Im going to disagree - bikes are incredibly more repairable because of e-commerce. I no longer rely on local availability of parts, and lack of documentation when doing repairs. YouTube has infinite knowledge and Amazon/walmart ship literally any part to my door. Bottom bracket as an example I don’t think is fair - I’m an avid cyclist and have never once heard of anyone working in their bottom bracket. Chain, derailleur, cranks/pedals, brakes, handlebars, seat, etc are all very reasonable to do but bottom brackets everyone takes to a shop. Additionally, shop prices (at least in Denver) are absolutely disgusting. A brake pad is $15 in my lbs, but the same one is $6 online direct from the mfg. maybe 2 minutes of labor to repair, but the shop will charge $75 minimum. I was quoted $130 for a chain replacement when I went in to get my recalled cranks replaced.
- oulipo 2y ago
  It's true for mechanical bikes! For e-bikes, some manufacturers try to lock users down with DRM. And the last part that's hard to repair is the battery! But at Gouach (disclaimer: I'm one of the co-founder), we really wanted to provide a way for people and company fleets to have observability and agency over their batteries, so we've designed (took us 2 years haha) a repairable battery that's working very well now! You need nothing but a screwdriver. Added benefit is that you can now decentralize production and repair: any shop can produce small batches of batteries, or repair them, without complex equipment or specialized training!
- selimthegrim 2y ago
  Often times community bike shops will have tools to let you fix one. It is a kind of once in a decade repair though.
- ljf 2y ago
  Yeah I've only ever had to use my bottom bracket tool twice in 20 years of cycling, wasn't so hard to do (moving from a cracked frame to a new one once, and replacing a bottom bracket that had gone in a bmx) - but I doubt most people would try to diy it - it just so happened that I had the tool in my 'every tool you might ever need' kit from China.
oulipo 2y ago
Founder of Gouach, the repairable (and fireproof!) e-bike battery mentioned in the article, happy to answer any question! - we salvaged 100s of discarded e-bike batteries - we found that 90% of components were like new - batteries were thrown away because of the spot-welding and the glue which prevents repairability - we spent 2 years (and 5 patents) to design a robust, safe, and easy to assemble system that requires nothing but a screwdriver Our batteries have been in use since 2 years in the streets of France, on micro-mobility e-bikes, in the harshest possible conditions (rain, snow, cold, heat, shocks), and we're very happy with their performances! We're now opening it to the general public (for conversion kits, and to replace old batteries that are no longer manufactured) We plan to open-source at least part of the embedded software, so people can write extensions (to let their battery "talk" with any e-bike system, and share it — using WASM embeddable code — to other people on the web!) Let's fight planned obsolescence! (and if you're looking for a new battery, there's 25% off on https://get.gouach.com https://get.gouach.com)
- gr__or 2y ago
  absolutely beautiful mission, thank you!
  - oulipo 2y ago
    Thanks so much!! Appreciated
- acyou 2y ago
  How do you address local heat generation at the interfaces between the cells and the contacts? Does that pose additional risk of cell failure leading to thermal runaway in high current scenarios?
  - oulipo 2y ago
    Yes! You can check the technical details on our documentation and our FAQ here (sorry, we're still cleaning up now, but feel free to ask for details) https://docs.gouach.com/knowledge-base/frequently-asked-questions-on-the-infinite-battery https://docs.gouach.com/knowledge-base/frequently-asked-ques... We've seen that our design does not pose heating or resistance issues
cutchin 2y ago
I wish they'd have given more examples for traditional bikes than bottom brackets. Yeah, bike shops have to deal with lots of different BBs, but that's because they deal with bikes that might be 30 or 40 years old, from all over the planet. Some threaded, some press-fit, etc. Some high-end, some very cheap. On the most part, bike manufacturers use standardized parts that can be replaced by and end-user with sufficient know-how and the tools to do it. There aren't that many companies making drivetrain parts, so you tend to see Shimano and SRAM just about everywhere, and maybe the odd Campagnolo-equipped bike every now and then. At least here in the US. (Unrelated, Shimano's product range is crazy - somehow their components come stock on bikes ranging from $250 up to $12k or more.) Outside of < $200 Wal-Mart bikes, I've never had any trouble repairing or finding someone to do "normal" repairs or maintenance on a bicycle. I'd like to know what prompted the article, unless the real point was to complain about E-Bike batteries, which is not something I can really comment on.
- blacksmith_tb 2y ago
  I agree that the message seems to mostly be about e-bikes, though I will say I was recently forced to get yet another Shimano BB / rotor tool recently, and I have quite an assortment of them now... My newest ride has a belt (not an ebike, but Gates + Alfine 11sp) which means more unique bits (but likely not for a while, I did have to get a fitting to oil the hub, but that's less work than keeping a chain lubed, so I can't complain).
  - kjkjadksj 2y ago
    Hub is way more work than the chain. I have to repack mine soon and its going to take me getting it open, replacing the ball bearings, packing them in new grease after cleaning out old, then an undetermined amount of fiddling getting them just a quarter turn or so too loose in the cones so the quick release will torque them perfectly when its installed. Thats assuming nothing fights me along the way like a seized locknut on the cassette. Chain on the other hand if it starts getting noisy it gets a generous squirt of rock n roll gold and a rag for 5 mins then its fine for another long while.
acyou 2y ago
Lithium ion batteries and battery modules are never ever gonna be user repairable. The main reason is that the electrolyte is a highly toxic, carcinogenic and extremely flammable organic solvent. AAs are user swappable because the electrolyte is water based. Bikes started being less repairable when manufacturers noticed that steel frame 10 speeds were lasting multiple decades. If parts continue to be available, those frames are still going to be in use another 50 years from now. Particularly where cartridge bearings are used. Carbon fiber bikes are part of the trend. Will we eventually see a straight up plastic adult bike frame?
- woah 2y ago
  AAs aren't user repairable either. When was the last time you repaired an AA? What the article is asking for is just a standardized connector and voltage for Li-ion batteries.
  - acyou 2y ago
    I misspoke, what I intended to say is that lithium ion batteries are never going to be user swappable. Yes, you can get sketchy stuff off of Amazon that supports it, but the regulatory bodies will, correctly, continue to strongly resist end users touching bare lithium ion cells. Ever drop an AA battery? Nothing happens. Drop an 18650, you can easily have a little 1000 degree rocket shooting fire and toxic chemicals out one end. Nominal cell voltage is fairly standard and is dictated by cell chemistry. Standardized connector is welded zinc tab, for various good safety reasons.
- oulipo 2y ago
  Check out what we're building at https://get.gouach.com https://get.gouach.com ! We're solving exactly this problem, and we have designed a fireproof casing for extra safety! Happy to answer any question :)
  - acyou 2y ago
    I could see this being interesting if you handle all the aspects of pack teardown, rebuild and recertification, and send out finished packs. Would you be comfortable with doing that and standing behind those 100%? Asking regular people or even highly technical people to assess cell geometry, type, quality, balancing and cell capacity issues is going to result in people dying in fire. It just isn't that easy, even if you start with brand new, matched cells. Fireproof casing sounds great, as long as it's also being charged in a fireproof bunker. Unfortunately, that's not usually the case for consumer products. Noticing that in the video of the cell vent testing - Bosch vs. Gouach the electrical wire harness immediately turns black. If you charge this pack in a box filled with paper and a cell vents, will it start a fire? How are you going to thoroughly test with your production parts before shipping to customers next month?
whalesalad 2y ago
Bikes have sucked for a long time and they just seem to be getting worse. Even a bike that costs $5k+ will inevitably fall apart. I find that if you are a real serious cyclist the best option is to buy your own frame and then build your own rig with bespoke parts.
- burningChrome 2y ago
  I've bought a lot of bikes in my lifetime and only twice have I opted to build a bike from scratch. Both times I was working on a bike shop. It was really the second time when one of our dealers had a "bike shop deal" where you could get a frame/fork setup for like $300. The Fox fork on the frame was worth around $700 so it was a really good deal. The one thing I realized right away was all the stuff you take for granted on complete bikes that add up super quick. Oh you got some sweet disc brakes? You need brake lines, and brake fluid and have to know to set them up and bleed the lines, and you need brake levers. Oh, nice wheel set, you need tires as well, and you have to get the wheels trued before you put them on. You need a crank set, and pedals, and a chain and handlebars and a proper stem and grips and the list just goes on and on. It took me about three months to get all the parts together. I kept everything in the box at the shop, in the basement. Once I got everything together, myself and two mechanics who love building bikes, sat around the shop putting it all together which took quite a while. It was a pretty big wakeup call that yes, you can build a bike from scratch, but you also need a huge amount of knowledge and patience to put it all together. Even after I had put my bike together, it took several attempts to get the disc brakes dialed in which I've never had to deal with on a floor model. Same thing with the drivetrain and getting both derailleurs dialed in.
  - thefaux 2y ago
    Building a road bike with a threaded bottom bracket, rim brakes and pre built brakes really isn't that bad. I was pretty unexcited when disc brakes were introduced to road bikes due to the increased maintenance burden.
    - foco_tubi 2y ago
swayvil 2y ago
Speaking as an ex bicycle repair man, this irks and/or boggles me. I feel trolled. I mean, I doubt the veracity of this headline and I think they're making shit up. Bicycles are beautifully fixable and tweakable. Back at the shop we had hundreds of old bikes and half-bikes and hills of parts. Our power was vast and we were a wellspring of goodness. Our reputation was international. My boss was a master spoked wheel tuner. I can smell it now.
- foco_tubi 2y ago
  Parliament breaks between coats of Mastik...yeah, sometimes I think I miss that smell, but I don't.
mauvehaus 2y ago
Work in a bike shop part-time. Can confirm: there are about two dozen bottom bracket tools in the drawer. In fairness, bottom brackets have been a pain in the ass for decades. Even on old ones, there are a couple different hook spanners and pin spanners you might need for the lock ring and adjustable cup and a couple other weird-ass wrenches that you need from time to time. Shit's usually tight AF too, and the various tools that were fine for manufacturing a bike get a little iffy when everything's good and seized after 20 years of neglect. As for e-bikes, my usual observation when one comes in with an intermittent error is "We've managed to make bicycles as reliable as computers. What an incredible accomplishment for our species." We only work on the electric drivetrain on Trek bikes (and others that use Bosch). I can vouch for the fact that as of October 2024, the electric drivetrain stuff can be handled from the on-bike computer and an app isn't necessary for basic functionality. I'm sure you get some more features with the app, but you don't need it to just go for a ride. Batteries come with some wrinkles. Many manufacturers (not just Trek) want to make them easily removable so you can take them with you to charge and prevent them from getting stolen. They also want them to integrate nicely with the frame visually. The result is frequently some amount of compromise in the proprietary direction. That said, Bosch appears to make some standard-ish batteries that are used in less-integrated installations across bike manufacturers.
- oulipo 2y ago
  You're right! Big issue with Bosch systems is that they use DRM to lock-in users, so that they need to buy (very expensive) Bosch batteries. Bosch batteries are well-designed, and very safe. But still issues can happen. If you want to check a fun battery fire video, here's a comparison that we've made between a Gouach fireproof battery (disclaimer: I'm a co-founder) and a Bosch battery! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJETffg0kFc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJETffg0kFc (the video is not perfect because we had to drill for one battery and not the other for technical reason, and it doesn't change the result, but just for the sake of it, we're planning to film a new one next week haha)
  - mauvehaus 2y ago
    Appreciate the work you're doing, and to be clear: I'm not defending any of Bosch's business practices and vendor lock-in[0]. I do appreciate that they're big enough that they pop up on multiple manufacturers' bikes and that they offer a battery system that looks decent enough that various manufacturers are willing to use it. [0] Like the USB dongle you have to have to run their diagnostic software...
TRiG_Ireland 2y ago
The science/education podcast Let's Learn Everything had an episode recently about planned obsolescence [1], and it does seem to have started with the bicycle. So this is not new. 1: https://maximumfun.org/episodes/lets-learn-everything/70-the-core-of-the-earth-planned-obsolescence/ https://maximumfun.org/episodes/lets-learn-everything/70-the...
- oulipo 2y ago
  This is very intersting! Thanks
  - TRiG_Ireland 2y ago
    I've just noticed that the timestamps on the page are clearly from a different episode. The planned obsolescence section actually starts at 57:42.
abyssin 2y ago
Bicycles should be required to be sold with a sheet of all the measurements of replacement parts. I find that buying the correct part is often the biggest hurdle in maintaining my bicycles.
- gonzo41 2y ago
  OMG yes. This so much.
  - wink 2y ago
    Or just small details like: If you already provide a list of what rim and spokes, maybe add the size of the spoke nipples. Or what model of brake pad.
- foco_tubi 2y ago
  Complete bicycle manufacturers usually make these specification lists public in online and print catalogs. Component-level repair, as in many other fields, requires more specialized knowledge and a parts list is rarely practical nor helpful.
  - abyssin 2y ago
    I'm happy to learn about it. I've owned trekking/urban bicycles from multiples brands and never found such documents, except maybe using archive.org to get old marketing pages.
m463 2y ago
ever think the government should (externally) tax non-repairable stuff? Sort of like gas-guzzler taxes?
- oulipo 2y ago
  Great idea!
- idunnoman1222 2y ago
  Who decides if it’s repairable?
  - m463 2y ago
    Even a small start would be useful, like "user-replacable battery". not bike related, but say airpods would fail, 12v car battery would pass.
    - idunnoman1222 2y ago
      Does that mean a removable battery because who is to say that your bikes brand of batteries is going to be available for purchase tomorrow?
      - m463 2y ago
        open standard battery > standard battery > removable proprietary battery > glued-in phone battery > whatever airpods do
        idunnoman1222 2y ago
        I guess I don’t need to say that you need to define all those things and also the person who decides is you apparently. convenient
  - hedora 2y ago
    Mandate a ten year warranty that covers labor but (maybe) not parts.
Lio 2y ago
Hmm, I don’t know anything about ebikes but normal bikes seem to be going back to BSA threaded bottom brackets. The last 3 bikes I’ve bought have had BSA.
fire_lake 2y ago
How to make your life super easy if shopping for a bike: - 1 1/8 steerer tube, or maybe tapered - Threadless a-head headset in any common SHIS type. Threaded ones won’t last as long. - QR or common thru-axle - Any common BB standard (threadless ones are actually fine but require a well made frame, and you’d be surprised how many expensive frames are not well made) - Always a round seat post and get 27.2mm if you can. Bigger if you care about dropper posts - Rim brakes are fine unless you are doing serious off road. If going disc, hydraulics offer great performance for the price. - Flat bar shifting components are much more interchangeable and better value that drop bar! - If going drop bar, consider older 2x11 speed mechanical equipment. It’s much cheaper and it was competitive at a pro level not so long ago. - External cable routing! - Aluminium is uncool, but it represents a sweet spot in terms of weigh/cost/durability - Tyre volume, not frame material, is the most important factor in comfort - Never buy a bike that doesn’t fit you These tips won’t get you the best bike (in terms of absolute performance) but it will be reliable, easy to fix and good value.
- ricardobeat 2y ago
  I.. appreciate the effort but even as an owner of three bikes, and doing maintenance myself most of the time, I barely understand half of this list. I imagine most casual bicycle riders would be in the same boat? No idea what SHIS, QR, BB, dropper post or flat bar mean. Is this racing bike lingo?
  - fire_lake 2y ago
    SHIS is standard headset identification QR is quick release (as in wheels) BB is bottom bracket Dropper post is an MTB thing and so are flat bars!
    - DidYaWipe 2y ago
      What's "MTB?"
      - m463 2y ago
fizx 2y ago
I think that's true for e-bikes, but that's perhaps to be expected in a newer market. Over in analog mountain bikes, we have the new UDH standard, and basically everything else was standardized except some bearings. All mountain bikes are pretty modular. The main manufacturers make the frame, and then bolt on parts from different brake, shock, etc suppliers. There's at least two of each, which keeps things competitive.
wiredfool 2y ago
Meh. There have been Bike Shaped Objects sold at non-bike shops forever. Huffy used to be a complete joke of a bike, but in 1988 the 7-11 team rode "Huffy" frames. (which were really Serottas). Yeah, there are a lot of bottom bracket standards, most of them aren't proprietary, they're just different. Bottom brackets are a lot better than they were 40 years ago too -- back then you could pull them apart, replace the balls, repack the grease, and change the cups and spindle. And you had to. Now, you get a cartridge BB or a minimal pair of cups and some standard bearings. My sealed bearings now last a lot better than my cup and cone ones did. Hubs are similar. Cup and cone bearings can be maintained, but they pit, and no one ever really had replacable races. So if your bearings were bad, you replaced the wheel. With better hubs, you just pop out the bearings and pop new ones in. Old school (7-8sp) Shimano jockey wheels _never_ spun freely. Sram 11 speed ones, even on apex, spin beautifully, and in the case of my gravel bike, are outlasting the derailleur. I think we're in kind of a new golden age of cycling. There are tons of interesting bikes being made by small providers, using 3d printing, old school steel fabrication, custom carbon. There are tons of small company parts -- most CNC, but some additive. Basic non BSO components are pretty reliable, and even Shimano's low end isn't that bad for the casual crowd. There's a niche for everything, tracklocross or basket bikes or cargo or gravel or mountain touring or full squish. And there are even road bikes too. iFixit has some good rants, but this isn't one of them.
idunnoman1222 2y ago
Opinionated solution; always buy used never buy electric. There are enough steel frames in the world that we probably never need to manufacture another one.
jerlam 2y ago
Unfortunately this isn't a new problem. My 20+ year old bike, that doesn't have a single electronic component on it, has a single special crankarm bolt because the crankarm is "integrated" with the spider, presumably to shave off a few grams. Four normal bolts and one special bolt that may be hard to find today. A lot of bikes are often designed for racing, the equivalent of exotic cars. So new standards that have very marginal benefits are routinely being created and then abandoned when it gets rejected by the market or there is a new, better standard. But things that are mundane and standard today were cutting-edge when they first came out, and likely emerged from several competing standards.
loeg 2y ago
There are many kinds of bottom bracket these days, but like, not that many. BSA is still extremely common and it's looking like T47 (which has two variants) will be the other common standard going forward. BB30, BB86 exist. Other variants are much less common. Essentially the entire rest of the article is about ebikes and proprietary batteries, motors, apps, etc, and yeah, that's all true. I'd probably have just killed the bottom bracket section of this article and had the headline mention ebikes rather than try to generalize.
- foco_tubi 2y ago
  Which major manufacturers are adopting T47?
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mhandley 2y ago
My daily cycling mostly consists of a mile and a half to the station each way without any serious hills, but my station bike is one we got second-hand for my brother when he was a teenager back in 1980 or so and we repainted it back then, so it's probably over 50 years old. It is the scruffiest bike in the bike shed at the station, which is just the way I want it. But most importantly, just about everything on it still works. It was once a racer with a lightweight steel frame, but I put straight bars on it 20 years ago. It lives outside year round and has done so for 25 years, so it has a nice patina that means thieves always look the other way. A little rust converter every now and then ensures the corrosion looks much worse than it really is. The original pedals finally fell apart a couple of years ago, but replacements were readily available. The front derailier failed and I removed it, so it's a 5-speed now, but that is fine for my use. The saddle has been replaced many times. And the rear wheel needed replacing twice. But it's still on the original chainwheel (!), brakes, rear derailier, shifter and remarkably, front wheel. Headstock bearings and bottom bracket are original too. Anytime I have needed something, the local independent bike shop has it - all the parts are still available. Alongside it at the station are so many nice looking bikes, but chances are mine will outlive all of them and not get stolen either. Anyway, if you're getting a bike as transport, get yourself something used from way back that was a high quality bike back then. Some of them at least were built to last, they're easy to repair, and are still way lighter than most modern bike shaped objects.
mvdtnz 2y ago
I have no respect for e-bikes and couldn't care less about how they're constructed, but I ride mountain bikes and a return to standardisation is a big theme of the newer generation of MTB. People are shunning brands that ship proprietary crap in favour of universal parts and sizes.
foco_tubi 2y ago
This mostly seems to be a complaint about e-bikes and batteries. Almost all major manufacturers are still making mostly user-repairable bikes for recreational riding and commuting. From nearly a decade of bike industry experience, I can say that most people should not be doing their own repairs, or should at least have someone check their work. Lack of experience, shoddy mechanical aptitude, and poor attention to detail can all add up quickly to missing teeth and broken bones, or worse.
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jacknews 2y ago
"This makes it all the more important that we have legislation to force them to make proprietary parts available for riders to buy themselves" Of course this should be the case, but even then I'm not sure it would help, as they will simply make the spare parts so costly that it's uneconomical. Maybe there should be a 'standardization' score, somewhat like energy efficiency scores, that could then be mandated. Or mandate that parts interfaces must be documented and published as standards, and be free and open for competitors. The basic problem is that almost the whole of business has discovered or decided that their reason for existence is to get money out of people, and that providing the best products and services they can is merely incidental and not actually necessary, especially if they all play the same game.
sporkland 2y ago
I hate how fetishists on certain narrow cross cutting topics (e.g. right to repair, open source, environmentalists, security) drag the conversation in such a negative direction. The biggest revolution in biking accessibility happened in the last 10 years with electrification of bicycles. Most people care about total cost of ownership. The old bicycle were 100% repairable by most people and while it's a loss to not to be able to do that anymore it won't impact many people other than the ones looking to either drop their costs to near zero or the fetishists who will scream their heads off the whole time. It reminds me of not being able to pick a milk without getting scorn from somewhere (real milk ~ cows, oat milk ~ sugar, macadamia milk ~ env impact, soy milk ~ hormones, etc). All the while we're watering alfalfa to feed cows for beef. Oh boy the bikes are less repairable, even though half the city dwellers could be replacing cars with electric bikes. A car has way higher repair bills and up front purchase costs not to mention the ongoing costs.

207 points by LorenDB 2y ago

Unregulated markets trend towards brand lock-ins, proprietary parts, cheaper goods of inferior quality, etc. etc. etc. All businesses are doing this everywhere because we are running out of World for them to expand into, but any company that posts a less profitable quarter is presumed to be failing. For centuries companies have chased the fantasy of infinite growth, and we're running out of room. If we don't start contending with this in a serious way, and applying changes to our society to accommodate it, we will only ever see more of this.

nickff 2y ago
There are lots of counter-examples to this, such as the market for microprocessors. Huge market, few regulations, excellent quality, remarkably low switching costs.
- ToucanLoucan 2y ago
  "Huge" market? AMD and Intel. Technically Apple but they don't sell to OEM's, and of course bespoke processors for specific applications. It's huge in that it does a lot of business, but the market itself is incredibly small. If you want a processor for your next PC build, you have 2 flavors to pick from. Or a Mac.
  - nickff 2y ago
    You're ignoring all the non-desktop/laptop processors.
    - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
      That's true! So Qualcomm. Four whole firms, clearly invalidating my point.
      - nickff 2y ago
        ST Micro, Microchip, Texas Instruments, NXP, etc.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

taeric 2y ago

Can't get past the intro sentence without getting triggered. No, most people cannot fix a bike. As evidenced by the horrid shape most bikes are in. Heaven help folks that get the brakes so that they need to replace pads. You are as often to see people that ruined rims as you are to see people that did that correctly. Don't get me wrong, there is something there. Everyone can be trained to fix older mechanical things. This is true. And I, for the life of me, cannot understand why people get bikes that need apps to run. That is just baffling. So, change this to "ebikes are not being designed with repairability in mind" and I think I lose near all of my complaint. I do have worries about people not realizing how powerful ebikes are. Reminds me of early dirt motorcycles you could work on back in the day. Didn't take too many kids getting hurt before people took those seriously, I don't think. Odd to see us go right back down that path all because a lot of parents assume the battery tech is the same as it was a decade or so ago.

ThrowawayTestr 2y ago
Unlike car maintenance bike maintenance is way more accessible. You need like one or two specialized tools to cover the majority of the work you'll do on your bike compared to a car. People are just lazy.
- sidewndr46 2y ago
  Exactly what specialized tools do you need to work on a car? Are you counting closed end wrenches and sockets as "specialized" or something?
  - Ichthypresbyter 2y ago
    While it is technically a socket, an oil filter wrench is reasonably specialized in that you won't see it in a standard socket set. Same may be true of a spark plug socket depending on your car. Otherwise, doing routine/basic maintenance on a car, such as changing the oil, requires a means of getting under the car (ramps or jack and stands) and of handling large amounts of fluids (drain pan and funnel) neither of which you need to do the equivalent work on a bike. A torque wrench is much more important for car maintenance than for bike maintenance (and you'll need a bigger one!). Depending on the condition of your car you may want a breaker bar. Obviously doing anything with the suspension requires a spring compressor, and troubleshooting certain engine problems requires a compression tester, but those are needed infrequently enough that they can be rented or borrowed. And that's before getting into the model-specific specialized tools for something like a timing belt change, or anything electronic (though I recommend anyone with a car should get a cheap Bluetooth OBDII reader).

Micand 2y ago

I'm grateful that my 2019 Norco Section uses a round seatpost, threaded Shimano BB, and standard cockpit; I deplore the "self-adjusting" D-shaped Giant seatpost on my girlfriend's bike (which is subtly off-centre and takes all kinds of witchery to approximate the ease with which I can adjust a standard seatpost), as well as the mess of BBs and integrated cockpits that are becoming common even on mid-range road & gravel bikes. When I buy my next bike, I will go out of my way to select something using standardized parts. I very much hope something akin to the Framework laptop comes to market in cycling, where the entire machine is built to be user-serviceable with off-the-shelf, readily available parts. I put something like 20,000 km commuting to school on my early 1970s Raleigh Record, which I rebuilt almost completely with my brother, and it was a gloriously simple machine that I miss dearly today.

bgribble 2y ago
You can still buy bikes like that. There are plenty of people still making frame sets that will work with standard drive train components, standard sized stems, and plain ol handlebars in a variety of shapes. And they will build a bike for you. I bought a Rivendell about 10 years ago and it's probably my last bike. Is a steel frame heavier than carbon? Yes, a bit, but I don't have to throw it away after a crash, it rides like a dream, and the weight difference is less than the extra "water bottles" I carry around my midsection. Most of the weight of the bike+rider (which is what you have to haul around) is the rider, not the bike, and the frame is just a fraction of the weight of the bike! Even though new bikes are getting more and more proprietary, I don't foresee a time when I can't buy a new Shimano cassette or other replaceable parts.
- aidenn0 2y ago
  It does seem like a complete bike that is under $1100 or so today will be less repairable than the bike I got in 2008 for $600 (less than $900 in 2024 dollars).
  - kjkjadksj 2y ago
    In some ways yes in other ways no. Shimano has been on their forced obsolescence train for 30 years. They don’t make hoods for my old 8spd levers. If I want to not deal with ratty old tape over sticky ancient hoods I need to drop $130 on new claris levers and $25 on a new fd because the pull ratio changed then another $20 on new bar tape.

soared 2y ago

Im going to disagree - bikes are incredibly more repairable because of e-commerce. I no longer rely on local availability of parts, and lack of documentation when doing repairs. YouTube has infinite knowledge and Amazon/walmart ship literally any part to my door. Bottom bracket as an example I don’t think is fair - I’m an avid cyclist and have never once heard of anyone working in their bottom bracket. Chain, derailleur, cranks/pedals, brakes, handlebars, seat, etc are all very reasonable to do but bottom brackets everyone takes to a shop. Additionally, shop prices (at least in Denver) are absolutely disgusting. A brake pad is $15 in my lbs, but the same one is $6 online direct from the mfg. maybe 2 minutes of labor to repair, but the shop will charge $75 minimum. I was quoted $130 for a chain replacement when I went in to get my recalled cranks replaced.

oulipo 2y ago
It's true for mechanical bikes! For e-bikes, some manufacturers try to lock users down with DRM. And the last part that's hard to repair is the battery! But at Gouach (disclaimer: I'm one of the co-founder), we really wanted to provide a way for people and company fleets to have observability and agency over their batteries, so we've designed (took us 2 years haha) a repairable battery that's working very well now! You need nothing but a screwdriver. Added benefit is that you can now decentralize production and repair: any shop can produce small batches of batteries, or repair them, without complex equipment or specialized training!
selimthegrim 2y ago
Often times community bike shops will have tools to let you fix one. It is a kind of once in a decade repair though.
ljf 2y ago
Yeah I've only ever had to use my bottom bracket tool twice in 20 years of cycling, wasn't so hard to do (moving from a cracked frame to a new one once, and replacing a bottom bracket that had gone in a bmx) - but I doubt most people would try to diy it - it just so happened that I had the tool in my 'every tool you might ever need' kit from China.

oulipo 2y ago

Founder of Gouach, the repairable (and fireproof!) e-bike battery mentioned in the article, happy to answer any question! - we salvaged 100s of discarded e-bike batteries - we found that 90% of components were like new - batteries were thrown away because of the spot-welding and the glue which prevents repairability - we spent 2 years (and 5 patents) to design a robust, safe, and easy to assemble system that requires nothing but a screwdriver Our batteries have been in use since 2 years in the streets of France, on micro-mobility e-bikes, in the harshest possible conditions (rain, snow, cold, heat, shocks), and we're very happy with their performances! We're now opening it to the general public (for conversion kits, and to replace old batteries that are no longer manufactured) We plan to open-source at least part of the embedded software, so people can write extensions (to let their battery "talk" with any e-bike system, and share it — using WASM embeddable code — to other people on the web!) Let's fight planned obsolescence! (and if you're looking for a new battery, there's 25% off on https://get.gouach.com https://get.gouach.com)

gr__or 2y ago
absolutely beautiful mission, thank you!
- oulipo 2y ago
  Thanks so much!! Appreciated
acyou 2y ago
How do you address local heat generation at the interfaces between the cells and the contacts? Does that pose additional risk of cell failure leading to thermal runaway in high current scenarios?
- oulipo 2y ago
  Yes! You can check the technical details on our documentation and our FAQ here (sorry, we're still cleaning up now, but feel free to ask for details) https://docs.gouach.com/knowledge-base/frequently-asked-questions-on-the-infinite-battery https://docs.gouach.com/knowledge-base/frequently-asked-ques... We've seen that our design does not pose heating or resistance issues

cutchin 2y ago

I wish they'd have given more examples for traditional bikes than bottom brackets. Yeah, bike shops have to deal with lots of different BBs, but that's because they deal with bikes that might be 30 or 40 years old, from all over the planet. Some threaded, some press-fit, etc. Some high-end, some very cheap. On the most part, bike manufacturers use standardized parts that can be replaced by and end-user with sufficient know-how and the tools to do it. There aren't that many companies making drivetrain parts, so you tend to see Shimano and SRAM just about everywhere, and maybe the odd Campagnolo-equipped bike every now and then. At least here in the US. (Unrelated, Shimano's product range is crazy - somehow their components come stock on bikes ranging from $250 up to $12k or more.) Outside of < $200 Wal-Mart bikes, I've never had any trouble repairing or finding someone to do "normal" repairs or maintenance on a bicycle. I'd like to know what prompted the article, unless the real point was to complain about E-Bike batteries, which is not something I can really comment on.

blacksmith_tb 2y ago
I agree that the message seems to mostly be about e-bikes, though I will say I was recently forced to get yet another Shimano BB / rotor tool recently, and I have quite an assortment of them now... My newest ride has a belt (not an ebike, but Gates + Alfine 11sp) which means more unique bits (but likely not for a while, I did have to get a fitting to oil the hub, but that's less work than keeping a chain lubed, so I can't complain).
- kjkjadksj 2y ago
  Hub is way more work than the chain. I have to repack mine soon and its going to take me getting it open, replacing the ball bearings, packing them in new grease after cleaning out old, then an undetermined amount of fiddling getting them just a quarter turn or so too loose in the cones so the quick release will torque them perfectly when its installed. Thats assuming nothing fights me along the way like a seized locknut on the cassette. Chain on the other hand if it starts getting noisy it gets a generous squirt of rock n roll gold and a rag for 5 mins then its fine for another long while.

acyou 2y ago

Lithium ion batteries and battery modules are never ever gonna be user repairable. The main reason is that the electrolyte is a highly toxic, carcinogenic and extremely flammable organic solvent. AAs are user swappable because the electrolyte is water based. Bikes started being less repairable when manufacturers noticed that steel frame 10 speeds were lasting multiple decades. If parts continue to be available, those frames are still going to be in use another 50 years from now. Particularly where cartridge bearings are used. Carbon fiber bikes are part of the trend. Will we eventually see a straight up plastic adult bike frame?

woah 2y ago
AAs aren't user repairable either. When was the last time you repaired an AA? What the article is asking for is just a standardized connector and voltage for Li-ion batteries.
- acyou 2y ago
  I misspoke, what I intended to say is that lithium ion batteries are never going to be user swappable. Yes, you can get sketchy stuff off of Amazon that supports it, but the regulatory bodies will, correctly, continue to strongly resist end users touching bare lithium ion cells. Ever drop an AA battery? Nothing happens. Drop an 18650, you can easily have a little 1000 degree rocket shooting fire and toxic chemicals out one end. Nominal cell voltage is fairly standard and is dictated by cell chemistry. Standardized connector is welded zinc tab, for various good safety reasons.
oulipo 2y ago
Check out what we're building at https://get.gouach.com https://get.gouach.com ! We're solving exactly this problem, and we have designed a fireproof casing for extra safety! Happy to answer any question :)
- acyou 2y ago
  I could see this being interesting if you handle all the aspects of pack teardown, rebuild and recertification, and send out finished packs. Would you be comfortable with doing that and standing behind those 100%? Asking regular people or even highly technical people to assess cell geometry, type, quality, balancing and cell capacity issues is going to result in people dying in fire. It just isn't that easy, even if you start with brand new, matched cells. Fireproof casing sounds great, as long as it's also being charged in a fireproof bunker. Unfortunately, that's not usually the case for consumer products. Noticing that in the video of the cell vent testing - Bosch vs. Gouach the electrical wire harness immediately turns black. If you charge this pack in a box filled with paper and a cell vents, will it start a fire? How are you going to thoroughly test with your production parts before shipping to customers next month?

whalesalad 2y ago

Bikes have sucked for a long time and they just seem to be getting worse. Even a bike that costs $5k+ will inevitably fall apart. I find that if you are a real serious cyclist the best option is to buy your own frame and then build your own rig with bespoke parts.

burningChrome 2y ago
I've bought a lot of bikes in my lifetime and only twice have I opted to build a bike from scratch. Both times I was working on a bike shop. It was really the second time when one of our dealers had a "bike shop deal" where you could get a frame/fork setup for like $300. The Fox fork on the frame was worth around $700 so it was a really good deal. The one thing I realized right away was all the stuff you take for granted on complete bikes that add up super quick. Oh you got some sweet disc brakes? You need brake lines, and brake fluid and have to know to set them up and bleed the lines, and you need brake levers. Oh, nice wheel set, you need tires as well, and you have to get the wheels trued before you put them on. You need a crank set, and pedals, and a chain and handlebars and a proper stem and grips and the list just goes on and on. It took me about three months to get all the parts together. I kept everything in the box at the shop, in the basement. Once I got everything together, myself and two mechanics who love building bikes, sat around the shop putting it all together which took quite a while. It was a pretty big wakeup call that yes, you can build a bike from scratch, but you also need a huge amount of knowledge and patience to put it all together. Even after I had put my bike together, it took several attempts to get the disc brakes dialed in which I've never had to deal with on a floor model. Same thing with the drivetrain and getting both derailleurs dialed in.
- thefaux 2y ago
  Building a road bike with a threaded bottom bracket, rim brakes and pre built brakes really isn't that bad. I was pretty unexcited when disc brakes were introduced to road bikes due to the increased maintenance burden.
  - foco_tubi 2y ago

swayvil 2y ago

Speaking as an ex bicycle repair man, this irks and/or boggles me. I feel trolled. I mean, I doubt the veracity of this headline and I think they're making shit up. Bicycles are beautifully fixable and tweakable. Back at the shop we had hundreds of old bikes and half-bikes and hills of parts. Our power was vast and we were a wellspring of goodness. Our reputation was international. My boss was a master spoked wheel tuner. I can smell it now.

foco_tubi 2y ago
Parliament breaks between coats of Mastik...yeah, sometimes I think I miss that smell, but I don't.

mauvehaus 2y ago

Work in a bike shop part-time. Can confirm: there are about two dozen bottom bracket tools in the drawer. In fairness, bottom brackets have been a pain in the ass for decades. Even on old ones, there are a couple different hook spanners and pin spanners you might need for the lock ring and adjustable cup and a couple other weird-ass wrenches that you need from time to time. Shit's usually tight AF too, and the various tools that were fine for manufacturing a bike get a little iffy when everything's good and seized after 20 years of neglect. As for e-bikes, my usual observation when one comes in with an intermittent error is "We've managed to make bicycles as reliable as computers. What an incredible accomplishment for our species." We only work on the electric drivetrain on Trek bikes (and others that use Bosch). I can vouch for the fact that as of October 2024, the electric drivetrain stuff can be handled from the on-bike computer and an app isn't necessary for basic functionality. I'm sure you get some more features with the app, but you don't need it to just go for a ride. Batteries come with some wrinkles. Many manufacturers (not just Trek) want to make them easily removable so you can take them with you to charge and prevent them from getting stolen. They also want them to integrate nicely with the frame visually. The result is frequently some amount of compromise in the proprietary direction. That said, Bosch appears to make some standard-ish batteries that are used in less-integrated installations across bike manufacturers.

oulipo 2y ago
You're right! Big issue with Bosch systems is that they use DRM to lock-in users, so that they need to buy (very expensive) Bosch batteries. Bosch batteries are well-designed, and very safe. But still issues can happen. If you want to check a fun battery fire video, here's a comparison that we've made between a Gouach fireproof battery (disclaimer: I'm a co-founder) and a Bosch battery! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJETffg0kFc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJETffg0kFc (the video is not perfect because we had to drill for one battery and not the other for technical reason, and it doesn't change the result, but just for the sake of it, we're planning to film a new one next week haha)
- mauvehaus 2y ago
  Appreciate the work you're doing, and to be clear: I'm not defending any of Bosch's business practices and vendor lock-in[0]. I do appreciate that they're big enough that they pop up on multiple manufacturers' bikes and that they offer a battery system that looks decent enough that various manufacturers are willing to use it. [0] Like the USB dongle you have to have to run their diagnostic software...

TRiG_Ireland 2y ago

The science/education podcast Let's Learn Everything had an episode recently about planned obsolescence [1], and it does seem to have started with the bicycle. So this is not new. 1: https://maximumfun.org/episodes/lets-learn-everything/70-the-core-of-the-earth-planned-obsolescence/ https://maximumfun.org/episodes/lets-learn-everything/70-the...

oulipo 2y ago
This is very intersting! Thanks
- TRiG_Ireland 2y ago
  I've just noticed that the timestamps on the page are clearly from a different episode. The planned obsolescence section actually starts at 57:42.

abyssin 2y ago

Bicycles should be required to be sold with a sheet of all the measurements of replacement parts. I find that buying the correct part is often the biggest hurdle in maintaining my bicycles.

gonzo41 2y ago
OMG yes. This so much.
- wink 2y ago
  Or just small details like: If you already provide a list of what rim and spokes, maybe add the size of the spoke nipples. Or what model of brake pad.
foco_tubi 2y ago
Complete bicycle manufacturers usually make these specification lists public in online and print catalogs. Component-level repair, as in many other fields, requires more specialized knowledge and a parts list is rarely practical nor helpful.
- abyssin 2y ago
  I'm happy to learn about it. I've owned trekking/urban bicycles from multiples brands and never found such documents, except maybe using archive.org to get old marketing pages.

m463 2y ago

ever think the government should (externally) tax non-repairable stuff? Sort of like gas-guzzler taxes?

oulipo 2y ago
Great idea!
idunnoman1222 2y ago
Who decides if it’s repairable?
- m463 2y ago
  Even a small start would be useful, like "user-replacable battery". not bike related, but say airpods would fail, 12v car battery would pass.
  - idunnoman1222 2y ago
    Does that mean a removable battery because who is to say that your bikes brand of batteries is going to be available for purchase tomorrow?
    - m463 2y ago
      open standard battery > standard battery > removable proprietary battery > glued-in phone battery > whatever airpods do
      - idunnoman1222 2y ago
        I guess I don’t need to say that you need to define all those things and also the person who decides is you apparently. convenient
- hedora 2y ago
  Mandate a ten year warranty that covers labor but (maybe) not parts.

Lio 2y ago

Hmm, I don’t know anything about ebikes but normal bikes seem to be going back to BSA threaded bottom brackets. The last 3 bikes I’ve bought have had BSA.

fire_lake 2y ago

How to make your life super easy if shopping for a bike: - 1 1/8 steerer tube, or maybe tapered - Threadless a-head headset in any common SHIS type. Threaded ones won’t last as long. - QR or common thru-axle - Any common BB standard (threadless ones are actually fine but require a well made frame, and you’d be surprised how many expensive frames are not well made) - Always a round seat post and get 27.2mm if you can. Bigger if you care about dropper posts - Rim brakes are fine unless you are doing serious off road. If going disc, hydraulics offer great performance for the price. - Flat bar shifting components are much more interchangeable and better value that drop bar! - If going drop bar, consider older 2x11 speed mechanical equipment. It’s much cheaper and it was competitive at a pro level not so long ago. - External cable routing! - Aluminium is uncool, but it represents a sweet spot in terms of weigh/cost/durability - Tyre volume, not frame material, is the most important factor in comfort - Never buy a bike that doesn’t fit you These tips won’t get you the best bike (in terms of absolute performance) but it will be reliable, easy to fix and good value.

ricardobeat 2y ago
I.. appreciate the effort but even as an owner of three bikes, and doing maintenance myself most of the time, I barely understand half of this list. I imagine most casual bicycle riders would be in the same boat? No idea what SHIS, QR, BB, dropper post or flat bar mean. Is this racing bike lingo?
- fire_lake 2y ago
  SHIS is standard headset identification QR is quick release (as in wheels) BB is bottom bracket Dropper post is an MTB thing and so are flat bars!
  - DidYaWipe 2y ago
    What's "MTB?"
    - m463 2y ago

fizx 2y ago

I think that's true for e-bikes, but that's perhaps to be expected in a newer market. Over in analog mountain bikes, we have the new UDH standard, and basically everything else was standardized except some bearings. All mountain bikes are pretty modular. The main manufacturers make the frame, and then bolt on parts from different brake, shock, etc suppliers. There's at least two of each, which keeps things competitive.

wiredfool 2y ago

Meh. There have been Bike Shaped Objects sold at non-bike shops forever. Huffy used to be a complete joke of a bike, but in 1988 the 7-11 team rode "Huffy" frames. (which were really Serottas). Yeah, there are a lot of bottom bracket standards, most of them aren't proprietary, they're just different. Bottom brackets are a lot better than they were 40 years ago too -- back then you could pull them apart, replace the balls, repack the grease, and change the cups and spindle. And you had to. Now, you get a cartridge BB or a minimal pair of cups and some standard bearings. My sealed bearings now last a lot better than my cup and cone ones did. Hubs are similar. Cup and cone bearings can be maintained, but they pit, and no one ever really had replacable races. So if your bearings were bad, you replaced the wheel. With better hubs, you just pop out the bearings and pop new ones in. Old school (7-8sp) Shimano jockey wheels _never_ spun freely. Sram 11 speed ones, even on apex, spin beautifully, and in the case of my gravel bike, are outlasting the derailleur. I think we're in kind of a new golden age of cycling. There are tons of interesting bikes being made by small providers, using 3d printing, old school steel fabrication, custom carbon. There are tons of small company parts -- most CNC, but some additive. Basic non BSO components are pretty reliable, and even Shimano's low end isn't that bad for the casual crowd. There's a niche for everything, tracklocross or basket bikes or cargo or gravel or mountain touring or full squish. And there are even road bikes too. iFixit has some good rants, but this isn't one of them.

idunnoman1222 2y ago

Opinionated solution; always buy used never buy electric. There are enough steel frames in the world that we probably never need to manufacture another one.

jerlam 2y ago

Unfortunately this isn't a new problem. My 20+ year old bike, that doesn't have a single electronic component on it, has a single special crankarm bolt because the crankarm is "integrated" with the spider, presumably to shave off a few grams. Four normal bolts and one special bolt that may be hard to find today. A lot of bikes are often designed for racing, the equivalent of exotic cars. So new standards that have very marginal benefits are routinely being created and then abandoned when it gets rejected by the market or there is a new, better standard. But things that are mundane and standard today were cutting-edge when they first came out, and likely emerged from several competing standards.

loeg 2y ago

There are many kinds of bottom bracket these days, but like, not that many. BSA is still extremely common and it's looking like T47 (which has two variants) will be the other common standard going forward. BB30, BB86 exist. Other variants are much less common. Essentially the entire rest of the article is about ebikes and proprietary batteries, motors, apps, etc, and yeah, that's all true. I'd probably have just killed the bottom bracket section of this article and had the headline mention ebikes rather than try to generalize.

foco_tubi 2y ago
Which major manufacturers are adopting T47?

deleted 2y ago

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mhandley 2y ago

My daily cycling mostly consists of a mile and a half to the station each way without any serious hills, but my station bike is one we got second-hand for my brother when he was a teenager back in 1980 or so and we repainted it back then, so it's probably over 50 years old. It is the scruffiest bike in the bike shed at the station, which is just the way I want it. But most importantly, just about everything on it still works. It was once a racer with a lightweight steel frame, but I put straight bars on it 20 years ago. It lives outside year round and has done so for 25 years, so it has a nice patina that means thieves always look the other way. A little rust converter every now and then ensures the corrosion looks much worse than it really is. The original pedals finally fell apart a couple of years ago, but replacements were readily available. The front derailier failed and I removed it, so it's a 5-speed now, but that is fine for my use. The saddle has been replaced many times. And the rear wheel needed replacing twice. But it's still on the original chainwheel (!), brakes, rear derailier, shifter and remarkably, front wheel. Headstock bearings and bottom bracket are original too. Anytime I have needed something, the local independent bike shop has it - all the parts are still available. Alongside it at the station are so many nice looking bikes, but chances are mine will outlive all of them and not get stolen either. Anyway, if you're getting a bike as transport, get yourself something used from way back that was a high quality bike back then. Some of them at least were built to last, they're easy to repair, and are still way lighter than most modern bike shaped objects.

mvdtnz 2y ago

I have no respect for e-bikes and couldn't care less about how they're constructed, but I ride mountain bikes and a return to standardisation is a big theme of the newer generation of MTB. People are shunning brands that ship proprietary crap in favour of universal parts and sizes.

foco_tubi 2y ago

This mostly seems to be a complaint about e-bikes and batteries. Almost all major manufacturers are still making mostly user-repairable bikes for recreational riding and commuting. From nearly a decade of bike industry experience, I can say that most people should not be doing their own repairs, or should at least have someone check their work. Lack of experience, shoddy mechanical aptitude, and poor attention to detail can all add up quickly to missing teeth and broken bones, or worse.

deleted 2y ago

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jacknews 2y ago

"This makes it all the more important that we have legislation to force them to make proprietary parts available for riders to buy themselves" Of course this should be the case, but even then I'm not sure it would help, as they will simply make the spare parts so costly that it's uneconomical. Maybe there should be a 'standardization' score, somewhat like energy efficiency scores, that could then be mandated. Or mandate that parts interfaces must be documented and published as standards, and be free and open for competitors. The basic problem is that almost the whole of business has discovered or decided that their reason for existence is to get money out of people, and that providing the best products and services they can is merely incidental and not actually necessary, especially if they all play the same game.

sporkland 2y ago

I hate how fetishists on certain narrow cross cutting topics (e.g. right to repair, open source, environmentalists, security) drag the conversation in such a negative direction. The biggest revolution in biking accessibility happened in the last 10 years with electrification of bicycles. Most people care about total cost of ownership. The old bicycle were 100% repairable by most people and while it's a loss to not to be able to do that anymore it won't impact many people other than the ones looking to either drop their costs to near zero or the fetishists who will scream their heads off the whole time. It reminds me of not being able to pick a milk without getting scorn from somewhere (real milk ~ cows, oat milk ~ sugar, macadamia milk ~ env impact, soy milk ~ hormones, etc). All the while we're watering alfalfa to feed cows for beef. Oh boy the bikes are less repairable, even though half the city dwellers could be replacing cars with electric bikes. A car has way higher repair bills and up front purchase costs not to mention the ongoing costs.