5 ms·

In Jordan, a ‘stunning’ discovery under Petra’s ancient stone

129 points by aguaviva 2y ago

aguaviva 2y ago
https://archive.md/p7rFr https://archive.md/p7rFr
lubujackson 2y ago
Not to get all Indiana Jonesy about it, but 12 skeletons? From right around year 0? And they even show a picture of a weathered, ceramic cup? The article plays it straight, but I'm pretty sure this = Holy Grail confirmed.
- pushupentry1219 2y ago
  Year 0? I thought Petra was much much older than that. If year 0 is correct, these people were buried long after Petra was a bustling city then?
  - kelnos 2y ago
    Yeah that bit doesn't pass the smell test. Petra had been around for about 400 years by the time Jesus supposedly held his last supper. It seems much more likely that these 12 skeletons date back to the earlier days of the city. (Nitpick: there was no year 0; 1 BC goes right into AD 1. And Jesus' supposed death was around AD 33, not AD 1. Sometimes people think "AD" means "After his Death", but it's really "Anno Domini", or "the year of the/our Lord", when he was supposedly born.)
    - ithkuil 2y ago
      Alternatively we can parse AD as "Advancing Dates" and BC as "Backward Counting"
    - tengwar2 2y ago
      Historians don't have a year 0, astronomers do. In fact the historical calendar is a bit messy for other reasons, e.g. the year beginning in April rather than January for a long time.
- Telemakhos 2y ago
  The article says the skeletons date to 400-100 BC, so, no. Year 0 doesn't exist (1 BC is followed directly by AD 1), and the holy grail would have to date from AD 33 or so, because Jesus didn't die in the year of his birth.
  - auadix 2y ago
    Romans were like, what is this 0 you're talking about?
    - gerdesj 2y ago
      It's roughly 753 ab urbe condita, big nose!
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    How accurately can skeletons be dated? Within 100 years? 10 years? a year?
    - kelnos 2y ago
      They didn't actually date the skeletons, because they haven't excavated the site to physically examine them. The time range given by the article is just from the date the city was founded, until it was annexed by the Romans. It's a pretty safe assumption that they were buried there before the Roman annexation. My guess would be they were buried much closer to 400 BC than to AD 106.
  - BugsJustFindMe 2y ago
    > The article says the skeletons date to 400-100 BC...and the holy grail would have to date from AD 33 or so It says "between 400 B.C. and A.D. 106". That encompasses all relevant dates.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- BugsJustFindMe 2y ago
  > And they even show a picture of a weathered, ceramic cup A cup that looks a _lot_ like the grail prop from the film.
  - blackhaz 2y ago
    It's freaking identical. Definitely Spielberg's games.
- skrebbel 2y ago
  Your comment made my day!
- _joel 2y ago
  They have chosen wisely.
- kelnos 2y ago
  The cup they show isn't dated; it just says, "An ancient ceramic item discovered at the Treasury site". It's not even clear the cup was discovered during this particular expedition, or where it was found. It could be newer or older, and need not be related to the 12 skeletons. If the 12 apostles existed, it seems unlikely that they'd all be buried in the same place, in what may have been a "prestigious" tomb. Jesus isn't exactly described as a particularly popular figure in his time when it came to the authorities, and I would expect the 12 apostles would have died at different times, in different places, and wouldn't have been buried together. The time range is pushing it, too: between 400 BCE and 106 CE, though that's just the roughest of estimates based on when the city was founded and when it was annexed by the Romans, not based on any inspection of the remains. It feels more likely that this tomb was built, used, and sealed up well before Jesus and the disciples/apostles supposedly lived. Even if we assume the religious fairy tales are true, this doesn't pass the smell test: it's vanishingly unlikely that these are the remains of those men, or that any of this is related to the Holy Grail mythology.
  - chasil 2y ago
    They are not all buried in the same place. Mark is famously in Venice. https://www.ncregister.com/blog/where-are-the-12-apostles-now https://www.ncregister.com/blog/where-are-the-12-apostles-no...
    - stvswn 2y ago
      Or, that _could_ be Alexander the Great.
    - ccakes 2y ago
      Peter is apparently underneath the Vatican. I’m not religious but I love history - they run a tour under the current city and it’s really quite cool if you’re into that sort of thing http://www.scavi.va/content/scavi/en/ufficio-scavi.html http://www.scavi.va/content/scavi/en/ufficio-scavi.html
      - dylan604 2y ago
- ggambetta 2y ago
  That's the cup of a carpenter.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- 0xbadcafebee 2y ago
  In movie reality, this is definitely the Holy Grail. In real reality (for those not familiar), the grail is a legend invented in the middle ages.
  - Mistletoe 2y ago
    And it’s funny how much effort has been expended finding ridiculous items like this and ignoring the message of Jesus or following what he said. Imagine Jesus’ response if you showed him a cup he used or a splinter of the cross he died on. “Okay…” But I get it, humans like relics and totems, I think it is hard coded in our DNA.
    - panick21_ 2y ago
      > and ignoring the message of Jesus or following what he said. We have absolutely no idea what Jesus said. If we have any evidence at all of what Jesus said it would be 'Romans GTFO' because that's what gets you actually curlicued (ignore the nonsense in the gospels).
      - PepperdineG 2y ago
        I believe Brian wrote that in letters 30 feet tall before he was crucified
        panick21_ 2y ago
        That movie is full of insight. That whole 'nobody can hear Jesus talking' is a great point as well. Those speeches are just pure fiction, just as the speeches from Alexander and friends are. Real ancient historians even admitted that they just made up the speeches to add some flavor. In fact that whole speech from the gospel was most likely simple something 'Matthew' (not actual Matthew the character from the bible, but some random author who's script was later titled 'Mathew' by the church) inserted into Mark. And funny enough in these speeches Jesus just happen to say some stuff that overrides a number of points from 'Mark'. Its almost as if 'Matthew' used Jesus to voice his own opinions.
- mkl 2y ago
  The "cup" looks more like the top of a bottle.
sorokod 2y ago
That ground penetrating radar really delivers but what is the stunning part?
- parsimo2010 2y ago
  Finding 12 ancient skeletons in a place that was not previously known as a tomb is pretty stunning. Imagine if you found 12 bodies under your neighborhood bank- people would freak out, and it's not nearly as old as the Petra Treasury.
  - sorokod 2y ago
    Many places we know now as tombs weren't known as such before, that is untill some skeletons were found.
    - throwway120385 2y ago
      If you wait around long enough anywhere becomes a tomb.
      - BirAdam 2y ago
        Throwaway120385’s Law: On a long enough timeline, all places are tombs.
    - parsimo2010 2y ago
      What makes it unusual was this place was very well known as a treasury beforehand and has been a popular tourist attraction for over 100 years.
      - mkl 2y ago
        It's well known it was never an actual treasury; there's not much inside to it, and it's the first main "building" you see when entering through the canyon, designed to impress rather than store valuables. The name comes from rumour/legend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khazneh#Name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khazneh#Name. Most of the cliff structures are tombs.
pvaldes 2y ago
For some reason, slow people always lie under the big boulder, shaped like mail stamps. Never over the rock.
noneeeed 2y ago
For anyone thinking of visitng Petra, try and allow more than a couple of hours. When we went it was for two days, going in and out each day. A lot of people just go down the entry canyon, take a look at the Treasury (the bit in Indiana Jones) and head back. But the site itself is much larger. If you are up for a decent walk there are parts that I thought were much more impressive and interesting up the hills. Some of the scenary around there is stunning. Also, if you can do down in the evening, that's great too. Jordan as a whole was a really interesting place to visit.
- viewtransform 2y ago
  For those who cannot travel, the Fall of Civilizations episode 15. The Nabataeans - The Final Days Of Petra has stunning visuals in 4K https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSfFq02pK4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSfFq02pK4s
- simple10 2y ago
  If you go, I can't recommended enough to hike in to Petra from Little Petra (Siq al-Barid). Little Petra is a small caravan stop about 8km away. The hike brings you in through the backside of Petra near the Monastery. Also explore up the stairs carved in the rocks in Petra. They're somewhat hidden and most tourists do not venture up them. They lead to a sort of rock maze on top of the cliffs overlooking Petra with incredible views. I accidentally got lost up there at dusk and ended up hiking out the Al Siq canyon alone in the dark. It was unlike anything I had ever experienced. The stars and subtle desert night sounds felt like I had entered a time machine. One of those deeply transformative experiences that only occurs when venturing off the beaten path. Fortunately, the guards at the entrance were cool with my accidental trespassing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Petra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Petra
  - roelschroeven 2y ago
    When you hike in through the backside like that, is there a place where you buy a ticket and/or are scanned for tickets? When I was there, we went through the official entrance in Wadi Musa, with tickets and all (which I don't mind!). We went early to have the time to make quite a large tour around the whole area, and as far as I could tell it looked like the area was simply open for anyone to hike in or out freely, except through the front entrance. As I said, I don't have any problem with buying a ticket, I'm just wondering if my observations are correct.
caycep 2y ago
I always try and build Petra in my desert city before the AI in Civ 6!
tiffanyh 2y ago
It's hard not to wonder if this was staged for the tv show "Expedition Unknown", which had an exclusive to film a show at Petra that Discovery Channel has been advertising for months now.
- jazzyjackson 2y ago
  I'm not in the know but is it that terrible for an excavation to be funded by a TV show ? (Provided they don't fabricate anything)
  - tiffanyh 2y ago
    Given that 99% of excavations don't turn up anything of significance, were these artifacts already known to have existed and were just "discovered" on the show as the reveal? I'm truly not trying to create conspiracy theories, it's just the coincidence of this being found on a tv show seems unbelievable lucky.

129 points by aguaviva 2y ago

https://archive.md/p7rFr https://archive.md/p7rFr

Not to get all Indiana Jonesy about it, but 12 skeletons? From right around year 0? And they even show a picture of a weathered, ceramic cup? The article plays it straight, but I'm pretty sure this = Holy Grail confirmed.

pushupentry1219 2y ago
Year 0? I thought Petra was much much older than that. If year 0 is correct, these people were buried long after Petra was a bustling city then?
- kelnos 2y ago
  Yeah that bit doesn't pass the smell test. Petra had been around for about 400 years by the time Jesus supposedly held his last supper. It seems much more likely that these 12 skeletons date back to the earlier days of the city. (Nitpick: there was no year 0; 1 BC goes right into AD 1. And Jesus' supposed death was around AD 33, not AD 1. Sometimes people think "AD" means "After his Death", but it's really "Anno Domini", or "the year of the/our Lord", when he was supposedly born.)
  - ithkuil 2y ago
    Alternatively we can parse AD as "Advancing Dates" and BC as "Backward Counting"
  - tengwar2 2y ago
    Historians don't have a year 0, astronomers do. In fact the historical calendar is a bit messy for other reasons, e.g. the year beginning in April rather than January for a long time.
Telemakhos 2y ago
The article says the skeletons date to 400-100 BC, so, no. Year 0 doesn't exist (1 BC is followed directly by AD 1), and the holy grail would have to date from AD 33 or so, because Jesus didn't die in the year of his birth.
- auadix 2y ago
  Romans were like, what is this 0 you're talking about?
  - gerdesj 2y ago
    It's roughly 753 ab urbe condita, big nose!
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  How accurately can skeletons be dated? Within 100 years? 10 years? a year?
  - kelnos 2y ago
    They didn't actually date the skeletons, because they haven't excavated the site to physically examine them. The time range given by the article is just from the date the city was founded, until it was annexed by the Romans. It's a pretty safe assumption that they were buried there before the Roman annexation. My guess would be they were buried much closer to 400 BC than to AD 106.
- BugsJustFindMe 2y ago
  > The article says the skeletons date to 400-100 BC...and the holy grail would have to date from AD 33 or so It says "between 400 B.C. and A.D. 106". That encompasses all relevant dates.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
BugsJustFindMe 2y ago
> And they even show a picture of a weathered, ceramic cup A cup that looks a _lot_ like the grail prop from the film.
- blackhaz 2y ago
  It's freaking identical. Definitely Spielberg's games.
skrebbel 2y ago
Your comment made my day!
_joel 2y ago
They have chosen wisely.
kelnos 2y ago
The cup they show isn't dated; it just says, "An ancient ceramic item discovered at the Treasury site". It's not even clear the cup was discovered during this particular expedition, or where it was found. It could be newer or older, and need not be related to the 12 skeletons. If the 12 apostles existed, it seems unlikely that they'd all be buried in the same place, in what may have been a "prestigious" tomb. Jesus isn't exactly described as a particularly popular figure in his time when it came to the authorities, and I would expect the 12 apostles would have died at different times, in different places, and wouldn't have been buried together. The time range is pushing it, too: between 400 BCE and 106 CE, though that's just the roughest of estimates based on when the city was founded and when it was annexed by the Romans, not based on any inspection of the remains. It feels more likely that this tomb was built, used, and sealed up well before Jesus and the disciples/apostles supposedly lived. Even if we assume the religious fairy tales are true, this doesn't pass the smell test: it's vanishingly unlikely that these are the remains of those men, or that any of this is related to the Holy Grail mythology.
- chasil 2y ago
  They are not all buried in the same place. Mark is famously in Venice. https://www.ncregister.com/blog/where-are-the-12-apostles-now https://www.ncregister.com/blog/where-are-the-12-apostles-no...
  - stvswn 2y ago
    Or, that _could_ be Alexander the Great.
  - ccakes 2y ago
    Peter is apparently underneath the Vatican. I’m not religious but I love history - they run a tour under the current city and it’s really quite cool if you’re into that sort of thing http://www.scavi.va/content/scavi/en/ufficio-scavi.html http://www.scavi.va/content/scavi/en/ufficio-scavi.html
    - dylan604 2y ago
ggambetta 2y ago
That's the cup of a carpenter.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
0xbadcafebee 2y ago
In movie reality, this is definitely the Holy Grail. In real reality (for those not familiar), the grail is a legend invented in the middle ages.
- Mistletoe 2y ago
  And it’s funny how much effort has been expended finding ridiculous items like this and ignoring the message of Jesus or following what he said. Imagine Jesus’ response if you showed him a cup he used or a splinter of the cross he died on. “Okay…” But I get it, humans like relics and totems, I think it is hard coded in our DNA.
  - panick21_ 2y ago
    > and ignoring the message of Jesus or following what he said. We have absolutely no idea what Jesus said. If we have any evidence at all of what Jesus said it would be 'Romans GTFO' because that's what gets you actually curlicued (ignore the nonsense in the gospels).
    - PepperdineG 2y ago
      I believe Brian wrote that in letters 30 feet tall before he was crucified
      - panick21_ 2y ago
        That movie is full of insight. That whole 'nobody can hear Jesus talking' is a great point as well. Those speeches are just pure fiction, just as the speeches from Alexander and friends are. Real ancient historians even admitted that they just made up the speeches to add some flavor. In fact that whole speech from the gospel was most likely simple something 'Matthew' (not actual Matthew the character from the bible, but some random author who's script was later titled 'Mathew' by the church) inserted into Mark. And funny enough in these speeches Jesus just happen to say some stuff that overrides a number of points from 'Mark'. Its almost as if 'Matthew' used Jesus to voice his own opinions.
mkl 2y ago
The "cup" looks more like the top of a bottle.

sorokod 2y ago

That ground penetrating radar really delivers but what is the stunning part?

parsimo2010 2y ago
Finding 12 ancient skeletons in a place that was not previously known as a tomb is pretty stunning. Imagine if you found 12 bodies under your neighborhood bank- people would freak out, and it's not nearly as old as the Petra Treasury.
- sorokod 2y ago
  Many places we know now as tombs weren't known as such before, that is untill some skeletons were found.
  - throwway120385 2y ago
    If you wait around long enough anywhere becomes a tomb.
    - BirAdam 2y ago
      Throwaway120385’s Law: On a long enough timeline, all places are tombs.
  - parsimo2010 2y ago
    What makes it unusual was this place was very well known as a treasury beforehand and has been a popular tourist attraction for over 100 years.
    - mkl 2y ago
      It's well known it was never an actual treasury; there's not much inside to it, and it's the first main "building" you see when entering through the canyon, designed to impress rather than store valuables. The name comes from rumour/legend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khazneh#Name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khazneh#Name. Most of the cliff structures are tombs.

pvaldes 2y ago

For some reason, slow people always lie under the big boulder, shaped like mail stamps. Never over the rock.

noneeeed 2y ago

For anyone thinking of visitng Petra, try and allow more than a couple of hours. When we went it was for two days, going in and out each day. A lot of people just go down the entry canyon, take a look at the Treasury (the bit in Indiana Jones) and head back. But the site itself is much larger. If you are up for a decent walk there are parts that I thought were much more impressive and interesting up the hills. Some of the scenary around there is stunning. Also, if you can do down in the evening, that's great too. Jordan as a whole was a really interesting place to visit.

viewtransform 2y ago
For those who cannot travel, the Fall of Civilizations episode 15. The Nabataeans - The Final Days Of Petra has stunning visuals in 4K https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSfFq02pK4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSfFq02pK4s
simple10 2y ago
If you go, I can't recommended enough to hike in to Petra from Little Petra (Siq al-Barid). Little Petra is a small caravan stop about 8km away. The hike brings you in through the backside of Petra near the Monastery. Also explore up the stairs carved in the rocks in Petra. They're somewhat hidden and most tourists do not venture up them. They lead to a sort of rock maze on top of the cliffs overlooking Petra with incredible views. I accidentally got lost up there at dusk and ended up hiking out the Al Siq canyon alone in the dark. It was unlike anything I had ever experienced. The stars and subtle desert night sounds felt like I had entered a time machine. One of those deeply transformative experiences that only occurs when venturing off the beaten path. Fortunately, the guards at the entrance were cool with my accidental trespassing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Petra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Petra
- roelschroeven 2y ago
  When you hike in through the backside like that, is there a place where you buy a ticket and/or are scanned for tickets? When I was there, we went through the official entrance in Wadi Musa, with tickets and all (which I don't mind!). We went early to have the time to make quite a large tour around the whole area, and as far as I could tell it looked like the area was simply open for anyone to hike in or out freely, except through the front entrance. As I said, I don't have any problem with buying a ticket, I'm just wondering if my observations are correct.

caycep 2y ago

I always try and build Petra in my desert city before the AI in Civ 6!

tiffanyh 2y ago

It's hard not to wonder if this was staged for the tv show "Expedition Unknown", which had an exclusive to film a show at Petra that Discovery Channel has been advertising for months now.

jazzyjackson 2y ago
I'm not in the know but is it that terrible for an excavation to be funded by a TV show ? (Provided they don't fabricate anything)
- tiffanyh 2y ago
  Given that 99% of excavations don't turn up anything of significance, were these artifacts already known to have existed and were just "discovered" on the show as the reveal? I'm truly not trying to create conspiracy theories, it's just the coincidence of this being found on a tv show seems unbelievable lucky.