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I read the summary from the review and I am not convinced that neoliberal US and EU have a less extractive governance structure than China has, as the authors s

by js8 2y ago

I read the summary from the review and I am not convinced that neoliberal US and EU have a less extractive governance structure than China has, as the authors seem to claim. It's been a decade since the book was published and China is still going strong. We will see.

CyberRymden 2y ago
Do you actually think China has fairer courts, more open financial markets, and better business environment than the EU or US? For the longest time Hong Kong had to fill those gaps for China in order for the country to attract capital. Regardless, even if China does today the explanation still holds considering China only transformed a few decades before the book was written.
- JetSpiegel 2y ago
  I think China is a worse country to live that the US or EU, but a better business environment. China's State Capitalism is simply more efficient than the neoliberalism hellscape that came up from the Soviet Union's collapse. I see the rest of the world becoming more similar to China than the other way around, unfortunately. The US is already a pseudo-Soviet state economically, and is on the brink of becoming a dictatorship on top of that.
  - blackhawkC17 2y ago
    > I see the rest of the world becoming more similar to China than the other way around, unfortunately. I hope they enjoy the mediocrity that comes with state-dominated economies. > The US is already a pseudo-Soviet state economically. Maybe I'm blind, but I have no idea how someone looks at the USA and concludes this.
    - JetSpiegel 2y ago
      Extremely inequality that keeps increasing, political movements that try to change this are killed in the crib, a dying empire. Just because the Central Comittee is called Blackrock, doesn't mean the American economy is not being more and more centrally planned. Free Enterprise is dying. I mean economically, the political system is still "free" (less and less), it's not a dictatorship (yet).
      - blackhawkC17 2y ago
        > Just because the Central Comittee is called Blackrock, doesn't mean the American economy is not being more and more centrally planned. Of course, you'll mention BlackRock, the never-ending boogeyman for people with little economic knowledge.
jltsiren 2y ago
You have a short-term perspective. All kinds of governance structures can work for a single human lifetime, if they manage to get the right people to the right places. But those people will eventually retire and die. Good institutions make it more likely that their replacements will also be competent and have the right motivations and incentives. PRC has enjoyed ~45 years of stability and economic growth under four leaders. Until now, the leaders have retired voluntarily, and there has been an ordered transition of power to the successor. But Xi Jinping is clinging to power in a way his predecessors didn't. If he stays beyond 2027, it will be interesting to see if China can survive his death.
dash2 2y ago
China has become more and more authoritarian under Xi, its GDP growth stats may be dodgy, and recently its housing bubble has popped big-style. It could go the way of Japan. I agree with your last sentence, all the same.
- feedforward 2y ago
  People were saying when the PRC was founded 75 years ago it would collapse any day now. They were saying this during the cultural revolution. They were saying it earlier this year, as China sent a robot to the far side of the moon to collect moon rocks and bring them back to earth. And they're still saying it. I'm not holding my breath.
  - doctorpangloss 2y ago
    There are HN posters with the ability to see hard data inside America's largest tech and manufacturing businesses, but don't investigate the question, "How much of what you buy every day was made in China?"
  - kiba 2y ago
    Just because PRC didn't collapse doesn't mean PRC perform well. On the contrary, the current strength of PRC is probably a reversion to mean, what China would be like if it wasn't so mismanaged, and yet decades late from where they could be. States can endure a lot of mismanagement. Look at North Korea for instance. What we won't know is when we hit the breaking point. What is happening in Russia may lead to an eventual collapse, though unlikely. There are some signs of a loss of monopoly on violence as the system is pushed to its breaking point. Hopefully that won't happen, but it's a scary possibility nonetheless.
- zorked 2y ago
  China is the #1 trading partner of nearly every country in the world. That's all you need to know about how bad they are doing.
- MichaelZuo 2y ago
  How do you know this? I don’t want to single this out but tangible proof of a net increase in ‘authoritarian’ decision making, compared to say a decade ago, has never been posted on HN, as far as I know. Most of the in depth analysis I’ve seen suggests that although enforcement actions have become stricter over the past decade, the actual number of new laws and regulations has gone down. And more importantly, the number of contradictory laws and regulations (between central authorities, and between the centre and provinces) has gone way way down. So there’s much less leeway to punish on a whim or trap someone in a double bind, compared to a decade ago. Which suggests a net decrease, if anything.
nabla9 2y ago
Not really: https://data.worldbank.org/share/widget?contextual=aggregate&end=2023&indicators=NY.GDP.PCAP.CD&locations=CN-OE&start=2000 https://data.worldbank.org/share/widget?contextual=aggregate...

by js8 2y ago

CyberRymden 2y ago

Do you actually think China has fairer courts, more open financial markets, and better business environment than the EU or US? For the longest time Hong Kong had to fill those gaps for China in order for the country to attract capital. Regardless, even if China does today the explanation still holds considering China only transformed a few decades before the book was written.

JetSpiegel 2y ago
I think China is a worse country to live that the US or EU, but a better business environment. China's State Capitalism is simply more efficient than the neoliberalism hellscape that came up from the Soviet Union's collapse. I see the rest of the world becoming more similar to China than the other way around, unfortunately. The US is already a pseudo-Soviet state economically, and is on the brink of becoming a dictatorship on top of that.
- blackhawkC17 2y ago
  > I see the rest of the world becoming more similar to China than the other way around, unfortunately. I hope they enjoy the mediocrity that comes with state-dominated economies. > The US is already a pseudo-Soviet state economically. Maybe I'm blind, but I have no idea how someone looks at the USA and concludes this.
  - JetSpiegel 2y ago
    Extremely inequality that keeps increasing, political movements that try to change this are killed in the crib, a dying empire. Just because the Central Comittee is called Blackrock, doesn't mean the American economy is not being more and more centrally planned. Free Enterprise is dying. I mean economically, the political system is still "free" (less and less), it's not a dictatorship (yet).
    - blackhawkC17 2y ago
      > Just because the Central Comittee is called Blackrock, doesn't mean the American economy is not being more and more centrally planned. Of course, you'll mention BlackRock, the never-ending boogeyman for people with little economic knowledge.

jltsiren 2y ago

You have a short-term perspective. All kinds of governance structures can work for a single human lifetime, if they manage to get the right people to the right places. But those people will eventually retire and die. Good institutions make it more likely that their replacements will also be competent and have the right motivations and incentives. PRC has enjoyed ~45 years of stability and economic growth under four leaders. Until now, the leaders have retired voluntarily, and there has been an ordered transition of power to the successor. But Xi Jinping is clinging to power in a way his predecessors didn't. If he stays beyond 2027, it will be interesting to see if China can survive his death.

dash2 2y ago

China has become more and more authoritarian under Xi, its GDP growth stats may be dodgy, and recently its housing bubble has popped big-style. It could go the way of Japan. I agree with your last sentence, all the same.

feedforward 2y ago
People were saying when the PRC was founded 75 years ago it would collapse any day now. They were saying this during the cultural revolution. They were saying it earlier this year, as China sent a robot to the far side of the moon to collect moon rocks and bring them back to earth. And they're still saying it. I'm not holding my breath.
- doctorpangloss 2y ago
  There are HN posters with the ability to see hard data inside America's largest tech and manufacturing businesses, but don't investigate the question, "How much of what you buy every day was made in China?"
- kiba 2y ago
  Just because PRC didn't collapse doesn't mean PRC perform well. On the contrary, the current strength of PRC is probably a reversion to mean, what China would be like if it wasn't so mismanaged, and yet decades late from where they could be. States can endure a lot of mismanagement. Look at North Korea for instance. What we won't know is when we hit the breaking point. What is happening in Russia may lead to an eventual collapse, though unlikely. There are some signs of a loss of monopoly on violence as the system is pushed to its breaking point. Hopefully that won't happen, but it's a scary possibility nonetheless.
zorked 2y ago
China is the #1 trading partner of nearly every country in the world. That's all you need to know about how bad they are doing.
MichaelZuo 2y ago
How do you know this? I don’t want to single this out but tangible proof of a net increase in ‘authoritarian’ decision making, compared to say a decade ago, has never been posted on HN, as far as I know. Most of the in depth analysis I’ve seen suggests that although enforcement actions have become stricter over the past decade, the actual number of new laws and regulations has gone down. And more importantly, the number of contradictory laws and regulations (between central authorities, and between the centre and provinces) has gone way way down. So there’s much less leeway to punish on a whim or trap someone in a double bind, compared to a decade ago. Which suggests a net decrease, if anything.

nabla9 2y ago

Not really: https://data.worldbank.org/share/widget?contextual=aggregate&end=2023&indicators=NY.GDP.PCAP.CD&locations=CN-OE&start=2000 https://data.worldbank.org/share/widget?contextual=aggregate...