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News flash - vegans and vegetarians do not need "meat substitutes", as we do not crave meat. Difference between 33% (non-vegetarian) and %39 (vegan)percent of "

News flash - vegans and vegetarians do not need "meat substitutes", as we do not crave meat. Difference between 33% (non-vegetarian) and %39 (vegan)percent of "UPF" is trivial, and probably won't matter and will be offset by lack of carcinogens prevalent in fried meat etc.

stonethrowaway 2y ago
[flagged]
abdullahkhalids 2y ago
Doesn't frying anything, including vegetables, create carcinogens? Besides, plenty of meat eating cultures that rarely fry meat.
- IWeldMelons 2y ago
  Frying meat creates more carcinogens AFAIK; my point was not that though, I was arguing that ultraprocessed herbal food is not same processed meat food, almost certainly less harmful, as it does not require as much nitrites etc.
michael9423 2y ago
I don't think you can speak for all vegans and vegetarians. I was vegetarian for a couple years until meat cravings became so strong I started eating meat again. 84% of vegans and vegetarians return to meat: https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/animals-and-us/201412/84-of-vegetarians-and-vegans-return-to-meat-why https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/animals-and-us/201... Many because they crave it. Several vegan influencers have been caught eating meat and fish secretly. Conversely the same - some carnivore influencers have been caught eating fruit and other plant products. Only 2% of US-Americans are truly vegan or vegetarian (and even those tend to cheat here and there).
- collingreen 2y ago
  I don't love the word cheat when applied to veganism since it isn't a diet like vegetarianism.
  - antonyt 2y ago
    Can you elaborate on the distinction you’re trying to draw? I’m confused why the word diet would apply to one but not the other. They both seem like diets to me. Not as in fad diet, but as in restricted composition of food choices.
    - collingreen 2y ago
      Tl;dr - "plant based" is a (poorly named) vegan-compatible diet and fits better; veganism is a broader brush where "cheating" implies moral failure instead of a lapse of discipline. - - - Vegetarianism is a diet - choices about food for whatever reason. Many of those reasons have plenty of room for imperfection and still hold - the concept of a "cheat day" is common and often even useful for people trying to change their lives through food choices. In almost every case for a diet, craving a treat is normal and healthy and not a personal failure. "Perfect is the enemy of progress". Veganism, on the other hand, is a moral philosophy specifically about right or wrong AND it isn't internally motivated/facing/impactful. It isn't a diet or guidelines for personal change and a "slip" or "cheat" is very different (craving and then doing something you think is objectively wrong) than occasionally choosing to miss your calorie or macro target. Of course there are overlaps since choosing to be vegan requires a massive diet change in the US AND because, like vegetarianism, people choose that diet for many reasons, not all of which are the moral philosophy. People use the term "plant based" to describe the diet only (not a good name but it seems to be out there for better or worse) which is on the same footing as any other diet. As a thought experiment for why the diet vs moral distinction might matter, pick something you're comfortable deciding is morally wrong (lying? Shoplifting? Infidelity? Sexual harassment? Domestic violence? Rape? Murder? Slavery?) and then think about what a "cheat day" for that would be. To me it invalidates the whole idea. As an example, someone cutting down their violent crime to only one "cheat day" a week might objectively be progress but it doesnt earn my respect - the only correct amount of that behavior is zero in my mind and the worse the "indulgence" or "craving" the more clear that is for me when I think about it. I hope this doesn't put your back up or come off as "holier than thou" - I'm trying to talk about the shape of the difference without taking a side on the specific moral arguments. For what it's worth this is a common way I see vegans and non-vegans accidentally offended each other and get into a negative spiral so I really appreciate you asking the genuine question.
xnx 2y ago
> vegans and vegetarians do not need "meat substitutes", as we do not crave meat Speak for yourself. I might only have them once/month, but I enjoy the flavors of Impossible Foods and Beyond products.
neilv 2y ago
> News flash - vegans and vegetarians do not need "meat substitutes", as we do not crave meat. This news flash is news to me. Vegetarian diet (and not much ovo nor lacto) for 25+ years. I eat fake meat almost every day. And in the summer, when neighbors cook some unidentified real meat on their grill, and it wafts over, I feel a twinge of carnivore frenzy, ready to fight them for their kill, with my claws and teeth.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
  I tried going vegan once. I found my craving for a burger increased the longer I went without. That told me I was suffering a nutritional deficiency. I don't observe the same increase in cravings over time for generic tasty food like chocolate cake. (I suspect it was the heme iron in the burger btw)
  - IWeldMelons 2y ago
    You should not switch straight to vegan, you should've started with vegetarian.
    - 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
      Why would that make a difference?
      - WalterSear 2y ago
        I think they are primarily suggesting that you take it slow. I'd wager a lot that your craving was due to the psychology of the process you performed, not some actual physiological withdrawal. If you took your time and found other things that were good to eat, rather than 'quitting' your habitual foods, I don't imagine you would have any trouble at all.
        0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
        I was eating vegan burgers every so often. That should've covered the psychology aspect, but it didn't. My energy level was steadily declining, as you might expect for an iron deficiency. When I gave in and started eating burgers, they were profoundly tasty, and my energy levels recovered. I've had dietary shifts in the past (from one omnivore diet to another) and nothing like this happened. I'm on board with the ethical aspect of veganism. I'm annoyed by what I perceive as the ideological aspect, which pretends a vegan diet can easily be perfectly nutritious. [I'm complaining about this because I'm hoping vegans will take a hard look in the mirror, and start taking nutrition seriously, so I won't suffer from an iron deficiency (or whatever it was!) if I try again in the future.]
downut 2y ago
I've been cooking community dinners for nearly 50 years, including, for most of that, for vegetarians/pescatarians/vegans. I even was camp cook on 4 week-long raft trips. It never fails: someone wants a fake turkey, or fake bacon, or fake burgers, or whatever. Unwrap the plastic, heat it up, it sez on the label it's vegan. Also you omnivores are killing the world. So I now refuse absolutely to cook for vegetarians/vegans. I always did make somebody else buy the fake industrial vegan meat substitutes, and amazingly, I caught friction for that. My wife and I are chemical engineers who have been inside quite a few food processing plants and we refuse to touch the output of those. I will eat potato chips every once in a while but nothing vegan at all. I want my vices honest.
- moribvndvs 2y ago
  What in the hell does this have to do with the comment you’re responding to?
- spondylosaurus 2y ago
  You don't eat anything "vegan"? Potato chips are vegan!
  - collingreen 2y ago
    lol don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!
  - gruez 2y ago
    Presumably he meant something like "vegan substitutes"
- IWeldMelons 2y ago
  I apologise, but you sound ultraprovincial, like "dayumn liberals" way. Vast majority of food non-vegans eat is vegan.
- brnt 2y ago
  > My wife and I are chemical engineers who have been inside quite a few food processing plants and we refuse to touch the output of those. Don't hold back!
stefantalpalaru 2y ago
[dead]

stonethrowaway 2y ago

[flagged]

abdullahkhalids 2y ago

Doesn't frying anything, including vegetables, create carcinogens? Besides, plenty of meat eating cultures that rarely fry meat.

IWeldMelons 2y ago
Frying meat creates more carcinogens AFAIK; my point was not that though, I was arguing that ultraprocessed herbal food is not same processed meat food, almost certainly less harmful, as it does not require as much nitrites etc.

michael9423 2y ago

I don't think you can speak for all vegans and vegetarians. I was vegetarian for a couple years until meat cravings became so strong I started eating meat again. 84% of vegans and vegetarians return to meat: https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/animals-and-us/201412/84-of-vegetarians-and-vegans-return-to-meat-why https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/animals-and-us/201... Many because they crave it. Several vegan influencers have been caught eating meat and fish secretly. Conversely the same - some carnivore influencers have been caught eating fruit and other plant products. Only 2% of US-Americans are truly vegan or vegetarian (and even those tend to cheat here and there).

collingreen 2y ago
I don't love the word cheat when applied to veganism since it isn't a diet like vegetarianism.
- antonyt 2y ago
  Can you elaborate on the distinction you’re trying to draw? I’m confused why the word diet would apply to one but not the other. They both seem like diets to me. Not as in fad diet, but as in restricted composition of food choices.
  - collingreen 2y ago
    Tl;dr - "plant based" is a (poorly named) vegan-compatible diet and fits better; veganism is a broader brush where "cheating" implies moral failure instead of a lapse of discipline. - - - Vegetarianism is a diet - choices about food for whatever reason. Many of those reasons have plenty of room for imperfection and still hold - the concept of a "cheat day" is common and often even useful for people trying to change their lives through food choices. In almost every case for a diet, craving a treat is normal and healthy and not a personal failure. "Perfect is the enemy of progress". Veganism, on the other hand, is a moral philosophy specifically about right or wrong AND it isn't internally motivated/facing/impactful. It isn't a diet or guidelines for personal change and a "slip" or "cheat" is very different (craving and then doing something you think is objectively wrong) than occasionally choosing to miss your calorie or macro target. Of course there are overlaps since choosing to be vegan requires a massive diet change in the US AND because, like vegetarianism, people choose that diet for many reasons, not all of which are the moral philosophy. People use the term "plant based" to describe the diet only (not a good name but it seems to be out there for better or worse) which is on the same footing as any other diet. As a thought experiment for why the diet vs moral distinction might matter, pick something you're comfortable deciding is morally wrong (lying? Shoplifting? Infidelity? Sexual harassment? Domestic violence? Rape? Murder? Slavery?) and then think about what a "cheat day" for that would be. To me it invalidates the whole idea. As an example, someone cutting down their violent crime to only one "cheat day" a week might objectively be progress but it doesnt earn my respect - the only correct amount of that behavior is zero in my mind and the worse the "indulgence" or "craving" the more clear that is for me when I think about it. I hope this doesn't put your back up or come off as "holier than thou" - I'm trying to talk about the shape of the difference without taking a side on the specific moral arguments. For what it's worth this is a common way I see vegans and non-vegans accidentally offended each other and get into a negative spiral so I really appreciate you asking the genuine question.

xnx 2y ago

> vegans and vegetarians do not need "meat substitutes", as we do not crave meat Speak for yourself. I might only have them once/month, but I enjoy the flavors of Impossible Foods and Beyond products.

neilv 2y ago

> News flash - vegans and vegetarians do not need "meat substitutes", as we do not crave meat. This news flash is news to me. Vegetarian diet (and not much ovo nor lacto) for 25+ years. I eat fake meat almost every day. And in the summer, when neighbors cook some unidentified real meat on their grill, and it wafts over, I feel a twinge of carnivore frenzy, ready to fight them for their kill, with my claws and teeth.

0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
I tried going vegan once. I found my craving for a burger increased the longer I went without. That told me I was suffering a nutritional deficiency. I don't observe the same increase in cravings over time for generic tasty food like chocolate cake. (I suspect it was the heme iron in the burger btw)
- IWeldMelons 2y ago
  You should not switch straight to vegan, you should've started with vegetarian.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
    Why would that make a difference?
    - WalterSear 2y ago
      I think they are primarily suggesting that you take it slow. I'd wager a lot that your craving was due to the psychology of the process you performed, not some actual physiological withdrawal. If you took your time and found other things that were good to eat, rather than 'quitting' your habitual foods, I don't imagine you would have any trouble at all.
      - 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
        I was eating vegan burgers every so often. That should've covered the psychology aspect, but it didn't. My energy level was steadily declining, as you might expect for an iron deficiency. When I gave in and started eating burgers, they were profoundly tasty, and my energy levels recovered. I've had dietary shifts in the past (from one omnivore diet to another) and nothing like this happened. I'm on board with the ethical aspect of veganism. I'm annoyed by what I perceive as the ideological aspect, which pretends a vegan diet can easily be perfectly nutritious. [I'm complaining about this because I'm hoping vegans will take a hard look in the mirror, and start taking nutrition seriously, so I won't suffer from an iron deficiency (or whatever it was!) if I try again in the future.]

downut 2y ago

I've been cooking community dinners for nearly 50 years, including, for most of that, for vegetarians/pescatarians/vegans. I even was camp cook on 4 week-long raft trips. It never fails: someone wants a fake turkey, or fake bacon, or fake burgers, or whatever. Unwrap the plastic, heat it up, it sez on the label it's vegan. Also you omnivores are killing the world. So I now refuse absolutely to cook for vegetarians/vegans. I always did make somebody else buy the fake industrial vegan meat substitutes, and amazingly, I caught friction for that. My wife and I are chemical engineers who have been inside quite a few food processing plants and we refuse to touch the output of those. I will eat potato chips every once in a while but nothing vegan at all. I want my vices honest.

moribvndvs 2y ago
What in the hell does this have to do with the comment you’re responding to?
spondylosaurus 2y ago
You don't eat anything "vegan"? Potato chips are vegan!
- collingreen 2y ago
  lol don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!
- gruez 2y ago
  Presumably he meant something like "vegan substitutes"
IWeldMelons 2y ago
I apologise, but you sound ultraprovincial, like "dayumn liberals" way. Vast majority of food non-vegans eat is vegan.
brnt 2y ago
> My wife and I are chemical engineers who have been inside quite a few food processing plants and we refuse to touch the output of those. Don't hold back!

stefantalpalaru 2y ago

[dead]