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NACS doesn't support 3-phase electric power so it is not an option in Europe.

by slaw 2y ago

umeshunni 2y ago
Is there a technical reason that's not possible in a future update to NACS?
- IshKebab 2y ago
  It doesn't have enough wires. For power NACS has 2 wires for single phase AC or DC and a small ground wire. CCS2 has 7 wires. 5 for 3 phase power (3 phases + ground + neutral) and 2 more for DC. It a pretty mad design. If you think about it CCS2 requires every single car to lug around a 3 phase battery AC-DC converter instead of just putting it with the chargers. Doesn't make sense.
  - labcomputer 2y ago
    > 3 phase battery AC-DC converter instead of just putting it with the chargers 3-phase -> DC is easier than single phase. One of the benefits of 3-phase is that power delivered is constant, so you don't need very big capacitors. That's part of the reason nobody makes a DC fast charger bigger than about 20kW.
    - IshKebab 2y ago
      Yes but is 3 phase 22kW easier than 1 phase 7kW? I doubt it.
  - anonfordays 2y ago
    >It doesn't have enough wires. For power NACS has 2 wires for single phase AC or DC and a small ground wire Two wires is enough for 208V phase-to-phase from a three phase power source [0]. NACS supports three phase power sources in this configuration. [0] https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Flookaside.fbsbx.com%2Flookaside%2Fcrawler%2Fmedia%2F%3Fmedia_id%3D760674931244317&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=12ff2fb3ed23c873411cd19b1df0c6ed2b52bb8f17fa2459a565a7a10de5c173&ipo=images https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F...
IshKebab 2y ago
You can run single phase devices off 3 phase supply. Most houses do not have 3 phase supply in Europe. It varies by country, but for example almost no houses have 3 phase supply in the UK. I couldn't find any actual data for other countries but based on Reddit questions etc. it's common in Sweden and Germany, rare in France and Spain. So support for 3 phase definitely isn't an issue for residential use, where you don't really care about the charging speed. And it isn't an issue for public charging because you'll want to use fast DC charging there.
- theluketaylor 2y ago
  3 phase is a huge deal, especially for commercial fleets. For public charging DC fast chargers are incredibly expensive, whereas a 3 phase AC charger is pretty cheap and effectively the same price as single phase charger. Delivering more power for the same install cost is valuable since it opens more charging use cases for low cost charging. I think north america is going to regret not having 1st class support for 3 phase charging baked into all electrified vehicles in the long term.
  - IshKebab 2y ago
    > For public charging DC fast chargers are incredibly expensive Maybe so but 3 phase AC is already the minority, and we've barely started the transition to electric cars. Look at https://www.zap-map.com/live https://www.zap-map.com/live Orange is 3 phase AC. It's about as popular as single phase, and way less popular than DC. They just opened a brand new transport hub near me with 100 charging points. All single phase. I just don't think it's a big deal. I don't think people really care about the difference between 7 kW (takes hours to charge) and 22 kW (takes hours to charge). Maybe people don't care about the hilarious clumsiness of the plug either; I don't know.
    - lrasinen 2y ago
      Over in Finland the usual home charger options are 3.6 kW and 11 kW, and that makes a difference (24 hrs vs overnight). Also three-phase AC is ubiquitous here, you need it to run your sauna stove :D
anonfordays 2y ago
You are incorrect. Two wires is enough for 208V phase-to-phase from a three phase power source [0]. NACS supports three phase power sources in this configuration. [0] https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Flookaside.fbsbx.com%2Flookaside%2Fcrawler%2Fmedia%2F%3Fmedia_id%3D760674931244317&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=12ff2fb3ed23c873411cd19b1df0c6ed2b52bb8f17fa2459a565a7a10de5c173&ipo=images https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F...

NACS doesn't support 3-phase electric power so it is not an option in Europe.

by slaw 2y ago

NACS doesn't support 3-phase electric power so it is not an option in Europe.

umeshunni 2y ago

Is there a technical reason that's not possible in a future update to NACS?

IshKebab 2y ago
It doesn't have enough wires. For power NACS has 2 wires for single phase AC or DC and a small ground wire. CCS2 has 7 wires. 5 for 3 phase power (3 phases + ground + neutral) and 2 more for DC. It a pretty mad design. If you think about it CCS2 requires every single car to lug around a 3 phase battery AC-DC converter instead of just putting it with the chargers. Doesn't make sense.
- labcomputer 2y ago
  > 3 phase battery AC-DC converter instead of just putting it with the chargers 3-phase -> DC is easier than single phase. One of the benefits of 3-phase is that power delivered is constant, so you don't need very big capacitors. That's part of the reason nobody makes a DC fast charger bigger than about 20kW.
  - IshKebab 2y ago
    Yes but is 3 phase 22kW easier than 1 phase 7kW? I doubt it.
- anonfordays 2y ago
  >It doesn't have enough wires. For power NACS has 2 wires for single phase AC or DC and a small ground wire Two wires is enough for 208V phase-to-phase from a three phase power source [0]. NACS supports three phase power sources in this configuration. [0] https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Flookaside.fbsbx.com%2Flookaside%2Fcrawler%2Fmedia%2F%3Fmedia_id%3D760674931244317&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=12ff2fb3ed23c873411cd19b1df0c6ed2b52bb8f17fa2459a565a7a10de5c173&ipo=images https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F...

IshKebab 2y ago

You can run single phase devices off 3 phase supply. Most houses do not have 3 phase supply in Europe. It varies by country, but for example almost no houses have 3 phase supply in the UK. I couldn't find any actual data for other countries but based on Reddit questions etc. it's common in Sweden and Germany, rare in France and Spain. So support for 3 phase definitely isn't an issue for residential use, where you don't really care about the charging speed. And it isn't an issue for public charging because you'll want to use fast DC charging there.

theluketaylor 2y ago
3 phase is a huge deal, especially for commercial fleets. For public charging DC fast chargers are incredibly expensive, whereas a 3 phase AC charger is pretty cheap and effectively the same price as single phase charger. Delivering more power for the same install cost is valuable since it opens more charging use cases for low cost charging. I think north america is going to regret not having 1st class support for 3 phase charging baked into all electrified vehicles in the long term.
- IshKebab 2y ago
  > For public charging DC fast chargers are incredibly expensive Maybe so but 3 phase AC is already the minority, and we've barely started the transition to electric cars. Look at https://www.zap-map.com/live https://www.zap-map.com/live Orange is 3 phase AC. It's about as popular as single phase, and way less popular than DC. They just opened a brand new transport hub near me with 100 charging points. All single phase. I just don't think it's a big deal. I don't think people really care about the difference between 7 kW (takes hours to charge) and 22 kW (takes hours to charge). Maybe people don't care about the hilarious clumsiness of the plug either; I don't know.
  - lrasinen 2y ago
    Over in Finland the usual home charger options are 3.6 kW and 11 kW, and that makes a difference (24 hrs vs overnight). Also three-phase AC is ubiquitous here, you need it to run your sauna stove :D

anonfordays 2y ago

You are incorrect. Two wires is enough for 208V phase-to-phase from a three phase power source [0]. NACS supports three phase power sources in this configuration. [0] https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Flookaside.fbsbx.com%2Flookaside%2Fcrawler%2Fmedia%2F%3Fmedia_id%3D760674931244317&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=12ff2fb3ed23c873411cd19b1df0c6ed2b52bb8f17fa2459a565a7a10de5c173&ipo=images https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F...