4 ms·

This is like saying, "All things being equal, I'd prefer Santa Claus bring presents on Christmas Eve than have to go shopping for my kids." It's like well duh

This is like saying, "All things being equal, I'd prefer Santa Claus bring presents on Christmas Eve than have to go shopping for my kids." It's like well duh of course you'd prefer the impossibly unrealistic miracle.

wizzwizz4 2y ago
Other countries do it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change4Life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change4Life
- sbelskie 2y ago
  Is there any evidence it’s effective? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_Kingdom#/media/File%3AObesity_in_the_UK.svg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_Kingdo...
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - wizzwizz4 2y ago
    The claim was about promotion, not effective promotion. (As a sibling comment points out, effective promotion is not unrealistic either. It won't happen on its own, but nothing does.)
    - card_zero 2y ago
      So other countries would officially prefer the impossibly unrealistic miracle.
  - sweeter 2y ago
    the UK has basically become the US by most metrics. This includes the increasing privatization of health services, transport, etc... and the excessive commodification of basic necessities like housing. I find that saying that health initiatives don't work by vaguely gesturing at a country, is not a structurally sound argument. Its like the sentiment here is: "is the fact that we include Pizza as a vegetable in American schools part of the problem? Nooooo, that can't be it. it must be a moral issue!" and thats just one example. The obesity problem in the US is tied directly to our relationship with highly processed (and CHEAP) food. Along with the stranglehold those companies have over state and federal institutions that allow them to directly sell these foods in schools and institutions, and heavily skirt FDA regulations via lobbying. The US is uniquely bad when we have a ton of chemicals and ingredients in our foods that are banned in most other countries. It is largely a systemic problem and a problem that can easily be solved. Poorer people tend to eat cheap food, cheap processed food isn't well regulated and is directly tied obesity and a whole host of health problems.
- ahahahahah 2y ago
  hahaha. "The UK has seen its obesity rates increase faster than the US. In the UK, obesity has risen sharply since 1990, when it affected only 14% of adults. The UK is also considered one of the most overweight countries in Western Europe." In addition, since the introduction of Change4Life, the obesity rate has simply continued to climb in the uk (see https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN03336/SN03336.pdf https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN03..., for example). So yes, other countries (just like the US), have introduced programs to try to encourage healthier behaviors, and have seen similar outcomes from them.
SapporoChris 2y ago
Of course it is impossible to live a healthy lifestyle and have healthy weight, if you ignore the 3/5ths of Americans that are not obese and the 7/8th of the global population.
- Teever 2y ago
  Are the 3/5ths of Americans who are not obese actually living a healthy lifestyle? Or are they just living a different unhealthy lifestyle? Is a skinny homeless methhead with a great BMI healthy? Or the blue collar dude who has terrible blood pressure from chain smoking and pounding energy drinks on his way to the job site? How many Americans who are not obese are on their way to becoming obese? There are lots of paths to unhealthiness and overeating / eating poorly is only one of them
  - valval 2y ago
    Obesity and poor metabolic health is by far the greatest predictor of an early death.
    - Teever 2y ago
      Yes of course, but the point I'm making is that people who aren't obese aren't necessarily healthy. People aren't born obese. They get that way through mistreating their body for a long period of time, and it is quite possible for them to die before they become obese to other maladies related to that mistreatment.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - hackable_sand 2y ago
    True. I do not think I have not yet met a person who is completely healthy. Maybe in passing.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
llamaimperative 2y ago
Impossibly unrealistic to change zoning to disincentivize car-dependent urban design? Impossibly unrealistic to get rid of enormous sugar production subsidies that make it insanely cheap? Impossibly unrealistic to simply tax added sugar?
- crooked-v 2y ago
  > Impossibly unrealistic to change zoning to disincentivize car-dependent urban design? Those zoning issues are the same reason for any number of other problems, including housing prices that are supposedly the #1 concern for a huge number of voters, and yet voters in many cities have only doubled down over time on making it harder and harder to build in efficient and high-density ways. "Impossible" seems like a fair way to put it.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    Yet some cities are making progress on exactly that issue. I haven't done the statistics on it, but I'll bet cities full of people who want zoning reform are more likely to reform than cities full of people who do not want it.
    - Schiendelman 2y ago
      No city has implemented anything like zoning reform. There are a handful of cities which, to great fanfare, have made tiny changes. Minneapolis has made the most impact, but it's hard to rule out correlation with falling demand for that city.
      - llamaimperative 2y ago
        Raleigh doubled its zoned density overnight.
        Schiendelman 2y ago
        They did not. They allowed duplexes and townhouses in some places that were limited to single houses (https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/wake-county/article252499018.html https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/wake-county...). This change ultimately allowed something like 10% more units in the city on a 100 year horizon. This is what I'm calling out - these changes sound big but they are nearly meaningless. Cities need periods of explosive growth to remain affordable (see Jane Jacobs, 1961 and 1970).

wizzwizz4 2y ago

Other countries do it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change4Life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change4Life

sbelskie 2y ago
Is there any evidence it’s effective? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_Kingdom#/media/File%3AObesity_in_the_UK.svg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_Kingdo...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- wizzwizz4 2y ago
  The claim was about promotion, not effective promotion. (As a sibling comment points out, effective promotion is not unrealistic either. It won't happen on its own, but nothing does.)
  - card_zero 2y ago
    So other countries would officially prefer the impossibly unrealistic miracle.
- sweeter 2y ago
  the UK has basically become the US by most metrics. This includes the increasing privatization of health services, transport, etc... and the excessive commodification of basic necessities like housing. I find that saying that health initiatives don't work by vaguely gesturing at a country, is not a structurally sound argument. Its like the sentiment here is: "is the fact that we include Pizza as a vegetable in American schools part of the problem? Nooooo, that can't be it. it must be a moral issue!" and thats just one example. The obesity problem in the US is tied directly to our relationship with highly processed (and CHEAP) food. Along with the stranglehold those companies have over state and federal institutions that allow them to directly sell these foods in schools and institutions, and heavily skirt FDA regulations via lobbying. The US is uniquely bad when we have a ton of chemicals and ingredients in our foods that are banned in most other countries. It is largely a systemic problem and a problem that can easily be solved. Poorer people tend to eat cheap food, cheap processed food isn't well regulated and is directly tied obesity and a whole host of health problems.
ahahahahah 2y ago
hahaha. "The UK has seen its obesity rates increase faster than the US. In the UK, obesity has risen sharply since 1990, when it affected only 14% of adults. The UK is also considered one of the most overweight countries in Western Europe." In addition, since the introduction of Change4Life, the obesity rate has simply continued to climb in the uk (see https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN03336/SN03336.pdf https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN03..., for example). So yes, other countries (just like the US), have introduced programs to try to encourage healthier behaviors, and have seen similar outcomes from them.

SapporoChris 2y ago

Of course it is impossible to live a healthy lifestyle and have healthy weight, if you ignore the 3/5ths of Americans that are not obese and the 7/8th of the global population.

Teever 2y ago
Are the 3/5ths of Americans who are not obese actually living a healthy lifestyle? Or are they just living a different unhealthy lifestyle? Is a skinny homeless methhead with a great BMI healthy? Or the blue collar dude who has terrible blood pressure from chain smoking and pounding energy drinks on his way to the job site? How many Americans who are not obese are on their way to becoming obese? There are lots of paths to unhealthiness and overeating / eating poorly is only one of them
- valval 2y ago
  Obesity and poor metabolic health is by far the greatest predictor of an early death.
  - Teever 2y ago
    Yes of course, but the point I'm making is that people who aren't obese aren't necessarily healthy. People aren't born obese. They get that way through mistreating their body for a long period of time, and it is quite possible for them to die before they become obese to other maladies related to that mistreatment.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- hackable_sand 2y ago
  True. I do not think I have not yet met a person who is completely healthy. Maybe in passing.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

llamaimperative 2y ago

Impossibly unrealistic to change zoning to disincentivize car-dependent urban design? Impossibly unrealistic to get rid of enormous sugar production subsidies that make it insanely cheap? Impossibly unrealistic to simply tax added sugar?

crooked-v 2y ago
> Impossibly unrealistic to change zoning to disincentivize car-dependent urban design? Those zoning issues are the same reason for any number of other problems, including housing prices that are supposedly the #1 concern for a huge number of voters, and yet voters in many cities have only doubled down over time on making it harder and harder to build in efficient and high-density ways. "Impossible" seems like a fair way to put it.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  Yet some cities are making progress on exactly that issue. I haven't done the statistics on it, but I'll bet cities full of people who want zoning reform are more likely to reform than cities full of people who do not want it.
  - Schiendelman 2y ago
    No city has implemented anything like zoning reform. There are a handful of cities which, to great fanfare, have made tiny changes. Minneapolis has made the most impact, but it's hard to rule out correlation with falling demand for that city.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      Raleigh doubled its zoned density overnight.
      - Schiendelman 2y ago
        They did not. They allowed duplexes and townhouses in some places that were limited to single houses (https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/wake-county/article252499018.html https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/wake-county...). This change ultimately allowed something like 10% more units in the city on a 100 year horizon. This is what I'm calling out - these changes sound big but they are nearly meaningless. Cities need periods of explosive growth to remain affordable (see Jane Jacobs, 1961 and 1970).