4 ms·

You can literally do the same thing by eating a healthy diet for 2-4 weeks.

hombre_fatal 2y ago
That's a trivial claim about any medication that changes behavior. You can achieve the same thing that the medication does by "just" having different behavior.
- SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
  Have you considered that maybe it is an evolutionary trait that it is hard to do certain things? That the people who can expend the effort and discipline, perhaps have a better configuration than those that can’t or don’t?
  - hombre_fatal 2y ago
    Sure. People say the same thing about ADHD. The question is how a trait fares in the modern world. Maybe a trait was useful to an ancestor but not to you today trying to navigate a calorie rich world of convenience. Just like a trait useful to a nomadic hunter might work against you when you're expected to sit at a desk job if you want to make the money necessary to fulfill your ambitions. It may very well be the case that we end up medicating away traits that were useful at some point in our lineage but not today. I just don't see how it matters much beyond the thought exercise.
    - SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
      I don’t think that’s a great comparison. Have you wondered why ADHD has exploded? Have you not realized how many people at hacker news are on SSRIs? Watch this comment, you will.
  - filoleg 2y ago
    The exact same argument can be applied to literally any medical issue, and it is a pointless one. Someone has an elevated risk of skin cancer due to their genetics? Probably an evolutionary trait that it is more likely for some people to get skin cancer within their lifetime. That doesn’t mean that using sunscreen and providing those people with related medical care (if the need arises) is some crime against nature and will end up hurting evolutionary prospects of the human race.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      > Someone has an elevated risk of skin cancer due to their genetics? Probably an evolutionary trait that it is more likely for some people to get skin cancer within their lifetime. More than probably, it's called "being white". (And we evolved that for more vitamin D?)
  - vundercind 2y ago
    Weird that the ones skinnier foreigners with a “better configuration” get genetically altered (I guess) to a worse configuration when they move to the US, then.
    - SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
      IDK what you mean, but if it isn’t clear to anyone that our food is poison, it should be. My complaint is getting addicted to pharma because we’re addicted to toxic food.
      - vundercind 2y ago
        My point is that skinny populations don’t seem to be skinnier than the US population due to greater genetically-backed willpower (better “configuration”). At least, if it’s a factor, it’s overwhelmed by other factors, it seems.
      - fragmede 2y ago
        hilariously, the toxic food companies are worried that ozemic will kill their profits. Maybe the pharma industry can fight the food industry conglomerates. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-07/ozempic-for-weight-loss-is-disrupting-companies-business-model https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-07/ozempic-f... https://www.wsj.com/business/ozempic-impact-snack-food-companies-9eec87e5 https://www.wsj.com/business/ozempic-impact-snack-food-compa... https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/10/09/ozempic-weight-loss-drugs-impact/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/10/09/ozempic-w... https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/05/investing/ozempic-food-companies/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/05/investing/ozempic-food-compan...
- andrewmcwatters 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - yohannparis 2y ago
    Could you provide some of those papers? I'm interested on what you are saying, but I am not able to find what you are mentioning using the link you provided.
    - andrewmcwatters 2y ago
      site:ncbi.nlm.nih.gov ghrelin, reward It goes on and on and on. In lab mice, it has been shown you can alter production in as little as 10 days. Human hormone production has similar turn around times.
  - rfrey 2y ago
    I eat almost zero processed foods and very little sugar - mostly from fruit. I shop exclusively on the perimeter of the grocery store and eat at a restaurant maybe once a month, with all my meals cooked at home. I try my best to limit portions. I have been overweight my entire life. I have successfully lost weight with up to eight months of calorie restriction, so my willpower is just fine, thank you. I have always gained it back, and you calling me out for some kind of moral turpitude is not helpful. Your "eat like an adult" finger waggling is condescending, and claiming anyone who thinks obesity is more complex than "just eat better food, bro" is anti-intellectual and anti-science is just insulting - and not particularly "pro science" either.
    - andrewmcwatters 2y ago
      In 8 months of losing 2 pounds a week, you would have lost roughly 64 pounds. You could have been losing more than that which is common on diets where added sugar is removed. But you're talking to someone who has worked with people with class 3 obesity and has seen the weight successfully stay off. You're omitting details. You simply didn't change your eating habits. Statistically, this detail you shared is also overwhelmingly the documented reason why people fail to keep off weight. Almost entirely, people who reside in higher classes of obesity have no idea what their relative consumption habits are in comparison to those with lower BMIs. This may come as a surprise to you, but most other countries where obesity is not a problem, most sugar consumption is also from fruit and these peoples' diets _don't_ contain anywhere near the amount of added sugar an American diet does. This isn't a special thing to point out, you just think it is because you have no other frame of reference.
Chernobog 2y ago
Not to argue for or against Ozempic, but there is a difference between what motivated individuals can achieve on their own, and what one can expect of the general population.
mock-possum 2y ago
Do you have the time to seek out and keep healthy food? Can you afford it? Do you have the executive function and impulse control etc to bring to bear the necessary self discipline? You’re making some pretty casual assumptions about people’s abilities.
vundercind 2y ago
Studies show nothing but high-touch interventions by specialists actually works for losing weight and keeping it off for a study cohort (i.e. might represent a population-level solution). These are impractically expensive and still less effective than one might expect. Researchers seem to be eager about the promise of supplementing the very-best programs they’ve been able to find… with GLP-1 agonists. Because that might finally make them really effective. That’s how bad the entire body of all other solutions we’ve looked at is.
outworlder 2y ago
> You can literally do the same thing by eating a healthy diet for 2-4 weeks. You have been downvoted, but that's true(and supported by evidence and science). Statistically, what most people have is sugar addiction. Simple carbs in general completely mess up your hunger hormones. The problem is that most people don't know what a healthy diet is. The food pyramid isn't it. Drinking a bunch of juice isn't it. Cereal is candy. They try "eating healthy", fail (not realizing what they are eating isn't healthy at all) and give up.
cthalupa 2y ago
If all it took to get the same feeling of GLP-1 agonists was success at the diet for 2-4 weeks, I would have a lot less experience being successful at diets for 2-4 weeks. A whole lot less.

That's a trivial claim about any medication that changes behavior. You can achieve the same thing that the medication does by "just" having different behavior.

SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
Have you considered that maybe it is an evolutionary trait that it is hard to do certain things? That the people who can expend the effort and discipline, perhaps have a better configuration than those that can’t or don’t?
- hombre_fatal 2y ago
  Sure. People say the same thing about ADHD. The question is how a trait fares in the modern world. Maybe a trait was useful to an ancestor but not to you today trying to navigate a calorie rich world of convenience. Just like a trait useful to a nomadic hunter might work against you when you're expected to sit at a desk job if you want to make the money necessary to fulfill your ambitions. It may very well be the case that we end up medicating away traits that were useful at some point in our lineage but not today. I just don't see how it matters much beyond the thought exercise.
  - SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
    I don’t think that’s a great comparison. Have you wondered why ADHD has exploded? Have you not realized how many people at hacker news are on SSRIs? Watch this comment, you will.
- filoleg 2y ago
  The exact same argument can be applied to literally any medical issue, and it is a pointless one. Someone has an elevated risk of skin cancer due to their genetics? Probably an evolutionary trait that it is more likely for some people to get skin cancer within their lifetime. That doesn’t mean that using sunscreen and providing those people with related medical care (if the need arises) is some crime against nature and will end up hurting evolutionary prospects of the human race.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    > Someone has an elevated risk of skin cancer due to their genetics? Probably an evolutionary trait that it is more likely for some people to get skin cancer within their lifetime. More than probably, it's called "being white". (And we evolved that for more vitamin D?)
- vundercind 2y ago
  Weird that the ones skinnier foreigners with a “better configuration” get genetically altered (I guess) to a worse configuration when they move to the US, then.
  - SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
    IDK what you mean, but if it isn’t clear to anyone that our food is poison, it should be. My complaint is getting addicted to pharma because we’re addicted to toxic food.
    - vundercind 2y ago
      My point is that skinny populations don’t seem to be skinnier than the US population due to greater genetically-backed willpower (better “configuration”). At least, if it’s a factor, it’s overwhelmed by other factors, it seems.
    - fragmede 2y ago
      hilariously, the toxic food companies are worried that ozemic will kill their profits. Maybe the pharma industry can fight the food industry conglomerates. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-07/ozempic-for-weight-loss-is-disrupting-companies-business-model https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-07/ozempic-f... https://www.wsj.com/business/ozempic-impact-snack-food-companies-9eec87e5 https://www.wsj.com/business/ozempic-impact-snack-food-compa... https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/10/09/ozempic-weight-loss-drugs-impact/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/10/09/ozempic-w... https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/05/investing/ozempic-food-companies/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/05/investing/ozempic-food-compan...
andrewmcwatters 2y ago
[flagged]
- yohannparis 2y ago
  Could you provide some of those papers? I'm interested on what you are saying, but I am not able to find what you are mentioning using the link you provided.
  - andrewmcwatters 2y ago
    site:ncbi.nlm.nih.gov ghrelin, reward It goes on and on and on. In lab mice, it has been shown you can alter production in as little as 10 days. Human hormone production has similar turn around times.
- rfrey 2y ago
  I eat almost zero processed foods and very little sugar - mostly from fruit. I shop exclusively on the perimeter of the grocery store and eat at a restaurant maybe once a month, with all my meals cooked at home. I try my best to limit portions. I have been overweight my entire life. I have successfully lost weight with up to eight months of calorie restriction, so my willpower is just fine, thank you. I have always gained it back, and you calling me out for some kind of moral turpitude is not helpful. Your "eat like an adult" finger waggling is condescending, and claiming anyone who thinks obesity is more complex than "just eat better food, bro" is anti-intellectual and anti-science is just insulting - and not particularly "pro science" either.
  - andrewmcwatters 2y ago
    In 8 months of losing 2 pounds a week, you would have lost roughly 64 pounds. You could have been losing more than that which is common on diets where added sugar is removed. But you're talking to someone who has worked with people with class 3 obesity and has seen the weight successfully stay off. You're omitting details. You simply didn't change your eating habits. Statistically, this detail you shared is also overwhelmingly the documented reason why people fail to keep off weight. Almost entirely, people who reside in higher classes of obesity have no idea what their relative consumption habits are in comparison to those with lower BMIs. This may come as a surprise to you, but most other countries where obesity is not a problem, most sugar consumption is also from fruit and these peoples' diets _don't_ contain anywhere near the amount of added sugar an American diet does. This isn't a special thing to point out, you just think it is because you have no other frame of reference.

Chernobog 2y ago

Not to argue for or against Ozempic, but there is a difference between what motivated individuals can achieve on their own, and what one can expect of the general population.

mock-possum 2y ago

Do you have the time to seek out and keep healthy food? Can you afford it? Do you have the executive function and impulse control etc to bring to bear the necessary self discipline? You’re making some pretty casual assumptions about people’s abilities.

vundercind 2y ago

Studies show nothing but high-touch interventions by specialists actually works for losing weight and keeping it off for a study cohort (i.e. might represent a population-level solution). These are impractically expensive and still less effective than one might expect. Researchers seem to be eager about the promise of supplementing the very-best programs they’ve been able to find… with GLP-1 agonists. Because that might finally make them really effective. That’s how bad the entire body of all other solutions we’ve looked at is.

outworlder 2y ago

> You can literally do the same thing by eating a healthy diet for 2-4 weeks. You have been downvoted, but that's true(and supported by evidence and science). Statistically, what most people have is sugar addiction. Simple carbs in general completely mess up your hunger hormones. The problem is that most people don't know what a healthy diet is. The food pyramid isn't it. Drinking a bunch of juice isn't it. Cereal is candy. They try "eating healthy", fail (not realizing what they are eating isn't healthy at all) and give up.

cthalupa 2y ago

If all it took to get the same feeling of GLP-1 agonists was success at the diet for 2-4 weeks, I would have a lot less experience being successful at diets for 2-4 weeks. A whole lot less.