4 ms·

Leaving WordPress (.org or WPF, still unsure which one)

83 points by LordAtlas 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
buginprod 2y ago
I dont fully understand this but it seems fucked. It sounds like a real job with all the real job issues and none of the pay. Actually antipay as it is an expensive hobby ... might as well snowboard. Edit: some of that team seem sponsored so maybe I am wrong?
- diggan 2y ago
  > It sounds like a real job with all the real job issues and none of the pay I dunno, 5 hours per week without pay sounds like volunteering to me, not like a "real job".
  - creatacc 2y ago
    [dead]
  - buginprod 2y ago
    Real job in terms of stress rather than time. 5h hacking on your.own thing != 5h contriburing to a big repo and doing something called "incident response" But technically it is volunteering.
    - creatacc 2y ago
      [dead]
    - diggan 2y ago
      Yeah, I understand what you mean. I guess I'd define "real job" as "Trade your time for my/our money", and if you're not getting paid (now or in the future), you're in one way or another "volunteering", no matter how stressful it is, what area the work involves, or the size of the thing you're contributing to.
bilekas 2y ago
> I don’t want to pay an attorney hundreds of dollars an hour to determine if the new required login checkbox applies to me. Seems like the right choice if not for now in the future, at this rate the petty childish behavior is looking to escalate further.
timvdalen 2y ago
I mean yeah, something like this was bound to happen. It'll be interesting to see what becomes of the WordPress ecosystem after the current crises is 'resolved'. From my view, WordPress usage was definitely already in decline, but its status as an entrenched juggernaut kept it relevant. Perhaps bringing attention to everyone that quietly used WordPress means those people will start to look for alternatives?
- robertjpayne 2y ago
  Personally don't feel like it's going to shift much. For devs who make a living off hosting/plugins/themes they might keep an eye on things but why move if the money is still coming in? For users, I doubt much of them will ever know or care -- unless you're on WP engine. Wordpress is still the most widely available, cheapest and easiest (for non-tech user) to customise software to make a website with.
  - s1mplicissimus 2y ago
    If I were a WP plugin developer / hosting provider I would be scared out of my buttocks and look for more reliable environments. If they do it to WP Engine, what stops them from doing it to me? Seems to me that it's just "Automattic doesn't have a problem with me" which might change at any time.
    - progx 2y ago
      Good luck, which more reliable environments should that be? Every other system is too small, or has too much fractions.
  - exsomet 2y ago
    Speaking as a user of wordpress (hosted on my own infrastructure, not theirs), this is an entertaining - if pathetic - fight between two entities that doesn’t really involve me. What would change that, and make me more likely to abandon Wordpress (taking the money my business spends in that ecosystem with it), is if things start to happen, such as a login checkbox with potential legal implications, that gets in my way of using the thing that Wordpress wants me to use. Whether or not that sentiment is shared across a larger subset of wordpress users I do not know, but I have a pretty strong spidey sense that this crusade is burning down the countryside it’s supposedly trying to save.
cloogshicer 2y ago
The legal disclaimer at the bottom is gold.
timvdalen 2y ago
The new checkbox that's required to log into WordPress.org: > [ ] I am not affiliated with WP Engine in any way, financially or otherwise. From the article I expected a link to very long terms, but this feels very on-brand for the pettiness of the whole drama so far.
- greatgib 2y ago
  I might be wrong, but I think that it might even be illegal in some countries like France. Except for banks, business are not allowed to discriminate customers and refuse to serve equally everyone. Imagine like saying you are not allowed to take gas in a shell gas station if you are an employee of Exxon or something like that...
madeofpalk 2y ago
Every step of the way Matt/Wordpress has really made the wrong decision in the worst way possible. He wants to have his cake (distribute free and open source software) and eat it to (force some companies to pay him money) which is completely incompatible.
- diggan 2y ago
  I think that's not really taking into consideration the situation from Matt's side. I have no bone in this fight, and I agree it looks childish to act in this manner, but on the other hand, Matt seems convinced (for better or worse) that WP Engine tried to mislead Wordpress users, and tried to damage Wordpress in other ways. I don't agree/disagree with it, but I don't read Matt's motivation as "I want more money" but more like "I want to defend this thing I've built that I feel like is being abused right now", even if I personally might not be able to see it in that light, or agree with the approach Matt is taking.
  - rpgbr 2y ago
    Frankly, he and his mother[1] are the only people I know who confused WP Engine for what it’s. Also, if confusing hosting services and WordPress FOSS project were a real concern for him, the first step should be change the name of his own WordPress.com… [1] https://wordpress.org/news/2024/09/wp-engine/ https://wordpress.org/news/2024/09/wp-engine/
  - tone 2y ago
    But none of his actions are sensible if he just wants to defend it. He's done more damage than WP Engine ever did. The argument that WP Engine is trying to mislead people is weak at best. We're seriously saying that talking about WordPress hosting was misleading? To whom? What about every other host that does this? Also considering the current deliberately misleading state of .com/.org/Automattic/Matt/the foundation etc, I really think they could do a lot to lead by example there before going this unnecessarily nuclear to others. I don't believe it because the reaction is totally out of line with the issue.
    - 2y ago
mastazi 2y ago
For context, when the OP speaks about the "new checkbox" and related legal implications, I believe they are talking about this one https://mastodon.social/@nixCraft/113282425644840219 https://mastodon.social/@nixCraft/113282425644840219 In the wordpress.org login form you now have to check a box saying “I am not affiliated with WP Engine in any way, financially or otherwise.” There are instances of people unable to login unless they choose to lie https://wordpress.org/support/topic/cant-log-in-to-org-due-to-wp-engine-affiliation/ https://wordpress.org/support/topic/cant-log-in-to-org-due-t... Note that wordpress.org was supposed to be the community site, not the for-profit one
- artdigital 2y ago
  Wow, someone (Matt?) had to make an effort to explicitly add this new checkbox...
  - stefanos82 2y ago
    ...wait until you inspect checkbox's class name with your devtools or view the HTML source code LOL!
    - cj 2y ago
      (Spolier alert): The class name is "login-lawsuit"
    - creatacc 2y ago
      [dead]
- diggan 2y ago
  From that thread: > I am unable to check that box. I’ve previously purchased services from them. I also know people who work there. Doesn't "affiliated" imply a formal relationship/connection between two entities, rather than just being a subscriber/buyer of something? Like you'd need to have some sort of influence or stake in the other entity for it to be a "affiliation". For example, I wouldn't say I'm "financially affiliated" with GitHub/Microsoft just because I've paid for the Pro plan in the past. But maybe the word is used differently in this specific context.
creatacc 2y ago
[dead]
supermatt 2y ago
[flagged]
- philipwhiuk 2y ago
  According to Matt it's WP Engine's job to determine what WP.org counts 'affiliated' which is absurd.
vrodic 2y ago
[flagged]
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > so many completely unnecessary small compatibility issues All of the breaking changes were deprecated for years. More than enough time for people to get their shit together.
  - vrodic 2y ago
    there's perefectly working stuff from php from over 20 years ago that only had to keep up with security patches
    - mschuster91 2y ago
      Unlike the Linux kernel ABI (and I think the JRE bytecode spec), PHP never made a "write once, run eternally" commitment. And stuff from 20 years ago is likely to be riddled with bugs, not sure when exactly mysqli with prepared statements entered the field.
eviks 2y ago
> because I don’t want to pay an attorney hundreds of dollars an hour to determine if the new required login checkbox applies to me Why would you need to do that? Just use your own judgment, what's the downside of getting this one wrong?
- outime 2y ago
  It's just over-the-top statements causing pointless drama.
  - LordAtlas 2y ago
    No, it's not. Please see the tweets I linked from this comment. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41790976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41790976
- chx 2y ago
  What's the downside? Who knows. Maybe a lawsuit. Don't ask. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41788704 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41788704
- LordAtlas 2y ago
  The reference is to this, where Matt has replied to a query about what constitutes "affiliation" by saying he could not answer that and the person should consult an attorney. https://x.com/JavierCasares/status/1843963074904227945 https://x.com/JavierCasares/status/1843963074904227945 Read that whole thread from the earlier tweets too. People are getting banned from the Slack channel for asking what the checkbox means. This isn't just drama from OP.
CM30 2y ago
It's crazy how much this drama has seeped into every aspect of the WordPress ecosystem, and how Matt/Automattic have tried to make it everyone's concern by tying it into the .org site as well. Should raise some serious worries about how 'independent' the foundation and open source project are compared to Automattic and WordPress.com. Wouldn't be surprised if people tried to fork the project at this rate.
- s1mplicissimus 2y ago
  well the foundation gave extensive trademark licensing to Automattic for free, so "independent" sounds like an awfully misplaced adjective in this case
morpheuskafka 2y ago
This page is still up: https://wordpress.org/five-for-the-future/pledge/wp-engine/ https://wordpress.org/five-for-the-future/pledge/wp-engine/ Ironically, it's the second Google hit for "wpengine." Appears to be self written, but nonetheless, describes WP Engine as having "played an integral role in supporting the WordPress project." I would think at this point both sides would have wanted it removed.
- supermatt 2y ago
  looks like they increased their pledge from 40 to 45 hours!
dangsux 2y ago
[dead]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
mdc431 2y ago
Oh my God look at the contributions page on her website. He's driving away so many dedicated community members.

83 points by LordAtlas 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

I dont fully understand this but it seems fucked. It sounds like a real job with all the real job issues and none of the pay. Actually antipay as it is an expensive hobby ... might as well snowboard. Edit: some of that team seem sponsored so maybe I am wrong?

diggan 2y ago
> It sounds like a real job with all the real job issues and none of the pay I dunno, 5 hours per week without pay sounds like volunteering to me, not like a "real job".
- creatacc 2y ago
  [dead]
- buginprod 2y ago
  Real job in terms of stress rather than time. 5h hacking on your.own thing != 5h contriburing to a big repo and doing something called "incident response" But technically it is volunteering.
  - creatacc 2y ago
    [dead]
  - diggan 2y ago
    Yeah, I understand what you mean. I guess I'd define "real job" as "Trade your time for my/our money", and if you're not getting paid (now or in the future), you're in one way or another "volunteering", no matter how stressful it is, what area the work involves, or the size of the thing you're contributing to.

bilekas 2y ago

> I don’t want to pay an attorney hundreds of dollars an hour to determine if the new required login checkbox applies to me. Seems like the right choice if not for now in the future, at this rate the petty childish behavior is looking to escalate further.

timvdalen 2y ago

I mean yeah, something like this was bound to happen. It'll be interesting to see what becomes of the WordPress ecosystem after the current crises is 'resolved'. From my view, WordPress usage was definitely already in decline, but its status as an entrenched juggernaut kept it relevant. Perhaps bringing attention to everyone that quietly used WordPress means those people will start to look for alternatives?

robertjpayne 2y ago
Personally don't feel like it's going to shift much. For devs who make a living off hosting/plugins/themes they might keep an eye on things but why move if the money is still coming in? For users, I doubt much of them will ever know or care -- unless you're on WP engine. Wordpress is still the most widely available, cheapest and easiest (for non-tech user) to customise software to make a website with.
- s1mplicissimus 2y ago
  If I were a WP plugin developer / hosting provider I would be scared out of my buttocks and look for more reliable environments. If they do it to WP Engine, what stops them from doing it to me? Seems to me that it's just "Automattic doesn't have a problem with me" which might change at any time.
  - progx 2y ago
    Good luck, which more reliable environments should that be? Every other system is too small, or has too much fractions.
- exsomet 2y ago
  Speaking as a user of wordpress (hosted on my own infrastructure, not theirs), this is an entertaining - if pathetic - fight between two entities that doesn’t really involve me. What would change that, and make me more likely to abandon Wordpress (taking the money my business spends in that ecosystem with it), is if things start to happen, such as a login checkbox with potential legal implications, that gets in my way of using the thing that Wordpress wants me to use. Whether or not that sentiment is shared across a larger subset of wordpress users I do not know, but I have a pretty strong spidey sense that this crusade is burning down the countryside it’s supposedly trying to save.

cloogshicer 2y ago

The legal disclaimer at the bottom is gold.

timvdalen 2y ago

The new checkbox that's required to log into WordPress.org: > [ ] I am not affiliated with WP Engine in any way, financially or otherwise. From the article I expected a link to very long terms, but this feels very on-brand for the pettiness of the whole drama so far.

greatgib 2y ago
I might be wrong, but I think that it might even be illegal in some countries like France. Except for banks, business are not allowed to discriminate customers and refuse to serve equally everyone. Imagine like saying you are not allowed to take gas in a shell gas station if you are an employee of Exxon or something like that...

madeofpalk 2y ago

Every step of the way Matt/Wordpress has really made the wrong decision in the worst way possible. He wants to have his cake (distribute free and open source software) and eat it to (force some companies to pay him money) which is completely incompatible.

diggan 2y ago
I think that's not really taking into consideration the situation from Matt's side. I have no bone in this fight, and I agree it looks childish to act in this manner, but on the other hand, Matt seems convinced (for better or worse) that WP Engine tried to mislead Wordpress users, and tried to damage Wordpress in other ways. I don't agree/disagree with it, but I don't read Matt's motivation as "I want more money" but more like "I want to defend this thing I've built that I feel like is being abused right now", even if I personally might not be able to see it in that light, or agree with the approach Matt is taking.
- rpgbr 2y ago
  Frankly, he and his mother[1] are the only people I know who confused WP Engine for what it’s. Also, if confusing hosting services and WordPress FOSS project were a real concern for him, the first step should be change the name of his own WordPress.com… [1] https://wordpress.org/news/2024/09/wp-engine/ https://wordpress.org/news/2024/09/wp-engine/
- tone 2y ago
  But none of his actions are sensible if he just wants to defend it. He's done more damage than WP Engine ever did. The argument that WP Engine is trying to mislead people is weak at best. We're seriously saying that talking about WordPress hosting was misleading? To whom? What about every other host that does this? Also considering the current deliberately misleading state of .com/.org/Automattic/Matt/the foundation etc, I really think they could do a lot to lead by example there before going this unnecessarily nuclear to others. I don't believe it because the reaction is totally out of line with the issue.
  - 2y ago

mastazi 2y ago

For context, when the OP speaks about the "new checkbox" and related legal implications, I believe they are talking about this one https://mastodon.social/@nixCraft/113282425644840219 https://mastodon.social/@nixCraft/113282425644840219 In the wordpress.org login form you now have to check a box saying “I am not affiliated with WP Engine in any way, financially or otherwise.” There are instances of people unable to login unless they choose to lie https://wordpress.org/support/topic/cant-log-in-to-org-due-to-wp-engine-affiliation/ https://wordpress.org/support/topic/cant-log-in-to-org-due-t... Note that wordpress.org was supposed to be the community site, not the for-profit one

artdigital 2y ago
Wow, someone (Matt?) had to make an effort to explicitly add this new checkbox...
- stefanos82 2y ago
  ...wait until you inspect checkbox's class name with your devtools or view the HTML source code LOL!
  - cj 2y ago
    (Spolier alert): The class name is "login-lawsuit"
  - creatacc 2y ago
    [dead]
diggan 2y ago
From that thread: > I am unable to check that box. I’ve previously purchased services from them. I also know people who work there. Doesn't "affiliated" imply a formal relationship/connection between two entities, rather than just being a subscriber/buyer of something? Like you'd need to have some sort of influence or stake in the other entity for it to be a "affiliation". For example, I wouldn't say I'm "financially affiliated" with GitHub/Microsoft just because I've paid for the Pro plan in the past. But maybe the word is used differently in this specific context.

creatacc 2y ago

[dead]

supermatt 2y ago

[flagged]

philipwhiuk 2y ago
According to Matt it's WP Engine's job to determine what WP.org counts 'affiliated' which is absurd.

vrodic 2y ago

[flagged]

mschuster91 2y ago
> so many completely unnecessary small compatibility issues All of the breaking changes were deprecated for years. More than enough time for people to get their shit together.
- vrodic 2y ago
  there's perefectly working stuff from php from over 20 years ago that only had to keep up with security patches
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    Unlike the Linux kernel ABI (and I think the JRE bytecode spec), PHP never made a "write once, run eternally" commitment. And stuff from 20 years ago is likely to be riddled with bugs, not sure when exactly mysqli with prepared statements entered the field.

eviks 2y ago

> because I don’t want to pay an attorney hundreds of dollars an hour to determine if the new required login checkbox applies to me Why would you need to do that? Just use your own judgment, what's the downside of getting this one wrong?

outime 2y ago
It's just over-the-top statements causing pointless drama.
- LordAtlas 2y ago
  No, it's not. Please see the tweets I linked from this comment. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41790976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41790976
chx 2y ago
What's the downside? Who knows. Maybe a lawsuit. Don't ask. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41788704 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41788704
LordAtlas 2y ago
The reference is to this, where Matt has replied to a query about what constitutes "affiliation" by saying he could not answer that and the person should consult an attorney. https://x.com/JavierCasares/status/1843963074904227945 https://x.com/JavierCasares/status/1843963074904227945 Read that whole thread from the earlier tweets too. People are getting banned from the Slack channel for asking what the checkbox means. This isn't just drama from OP.

CM30 2y ago

It's crazy how much this drama has seeped into every aspect of the WordPress ecosystem, and how Matt/Automattic have tried to make it everyone's concern by tying it into the .org site as well. Should raise some serious worries about how 'independent' the foundation and open source project are compared to Automattic and WordPress.com. Wouldn't be surprised if people tried to fork the project at this rate.

s1mplicissimus 2y ago
well the foundation gave extensive trademark licensing to Automattic for free, so "independent" sounds like an awfully misplaced adjective in this case

morpheuskafka 2y ago

This page is still up: https://wordpress.org/five-for-the-future/pledge/wp-engine/ https://wordpress.org/five-for-the-future/pledge/wp-engine/ Ironically, it's the second Google hit for "wpengine." Appears to be self written, but nonetheless, describes WP Engine as having "played an integral role in supporting the WordPress project." I would think at this point both sides would have wanted it removed.

supermatt 2y ago
looks like they increased their pledge from 40 to 45 hours!

dangsux 2y ago

[dead]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

mdc431 2y ago

Oh my God look at the contributions page on her website. He's driving away so many dedicated community members.