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They were using cocaine. It was a less concentrated form, sure, but it’s still using the same substance for a psychoactive effect.

by Mtinie 2y ago

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> were using cocaine. It was a less concentrated form, sure I was going to say this is pedantically correct, but on closer inspection, it's not even that. Cocaine, the chemical, is present in both coca leaves and cocaine, the drug. When people say cocaine--particularly in this context--they're referring to cocaine the drug, not cocaine the chemical. Cocaine the drug and cocaine the chemical are homonyms, and it's incorrect--fully technically--to confuse their use.
- philwelch 2y ago
  Cocaine, the chemical, is the active drug ingredient in coca leaves the same way caffeine, the chemical, is the active ingredient in coffee and ethanol, the chemical, is the active ingredient in beer. Powder and crack cocaine deliver much higher doses of cocaine than raw coca leaves, much like liquor is more potent than beer, but the chemical is the drug here. It’s not like it’s chemically transformed from one substance into another like with fermentation; it’s concentrated, like with distillation.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > It’s not like it’s chemically transformed from one substance into another like with fermentation Banks, the financial institutions, are not transformed into banks, exposed riverbeds, when they're proximate to water. Cocaine, the drug, and cocaine, the chemical, are simply homonyms. Claiming the Inca did cocaine is a dad joke, not serious argument.
    - wafflemaker 2y ago
      While I see sense in articulating that cocaine use was different in 17th c. compared to now, I don't believe that you'd argue the same against someone saying that a person drinking beer is drinking alcohol, because beer has less alcohol than vodka.
      - nicoburns 2y ago
        To make this analogous, the words for "alcohol" and "vodka" would have to be the same. The OP is arguing that when people say "doing cocaine" they are generally referring to the high-strength powdered form, not the underlying chemical in general. And that if we interpret the sentence like that (which we should if that's how it's generally understood) then it is not true that people were doing cocaine in the 17th century.
        School-Cotton 2y ago
        Random tangent: now I’m curious if there are any languages where the word for alcohol and vodka (or whatever is locally the most common spirit) is the same. Seems plausible that there would be.
        kasey_junk 2y ago
        Scottish?
        nicoburns 2y ago
        The word vodka is apparently derived from the Slavic word for water https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vodka#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vodka#Etymology
        School-Cotton 2y ago
        The word "whisky" is derived from the Scottish Gaelic word for "water", too. (Maybe that's what your sibling comment is referring to?)
  - BobaFloutist 2y ago
    When people drink coffee, they don't say "I'm taking caffeine." When people eat poppyseed bagels they don't say they're doing codeine or morphine. It's generally understood that "smoking weed" is likely to be a different experience than "taking THC"
    - philwelch 2y ago
      Poppyseed bagels don’t have a psychoactive dose of opioids and cannabis contains multiple cannabinoids, so those examples are totally irrelevant. When it comes to coffee, people are generally aware that caffeine is the active ingredient. If you ask someone, “have you had any caffeine today?”, they’re not going to say “no” if they’ve had six cups of coffee. They’re going to say, “yes, I’ve had six cups of coffee”. They’re not going to try and pick a tedious argument that they didn’t really have caffeine because they drank coffee instead of snorting crushed up caffeine pills.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- kragen 2y ago
  Cocaine, the drug, is cocaine, the chemical. They're literally exactly the same thing. They're not homonyms.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Cocaine, the drug, is cocaine, the chemical Nope. Cocaine, the drug, is a cocaine salt. Commonly cocaine hydrochloride, but Wikipedia seems convinced it's also neutralised into sulfates and nitrates. Crack contains cocaine, the chemical, but is not cocaine, the drug.
    - kragen 2y ago
      You're saying that freebase cocaine isn't "cocaine, the drug", but chlorides and sulfates are? It may be relevant to this discussion that salts dissociate in solution, but maybe it won't convince you because it sounds like you're steering painfully close to "the sun goes around the earth because people say 'the sun rises', and therefore it doesn't make sense to talk about sunrise on Mars." That is, it sounds like you're trying to bend over backwards to invent a coherent meaning to impose on the utterances of people who are just confused and ignorant, with the result that your own utterances are losing meaning. The reason people say things like "crack isn't cocaine, the drug" and "coca leaves don't contain cocaine" isn't that their utterances refer to some coherent entity called "cocaine, the drug", which consists of some arbitrary collection of cocaine salts but excludes the hydroxide. They're just wrong, because being wrong is a thing that people do a lot, especially when they're talking about things they don't know about, like chemistry.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > saying that freebase cocaine isn't "cocaine, the drug", but chlorides and sulfates are Yes. So does the DEA. We had separate charges for “cocaine” and “crack” for decades, with the former referring to the powdered salt and the latter to the base. The fact that the active compound is identical is irrelevant. > They're just wrong, because being wrong is a thing that people do a lot, especially when they're talking about things they don't know about, like chemistry We’re talking about language. Not chemistry per se. Someone saying someone doing crack is doing cocaine is simply incorrect in a colloquial context. Sort of like how tomatoes are culinarily a vegetable even if botanically they are fruits.
- sinkasapa 2y ago
  I suppose the better term would be synecdoche, since the similarity in pronunciation isn't coincidental, like "The sun rose in the morning." and "Look at the pretty rose petals." but is a form of motivated polysemy.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
sinkasapa 2y ago
It definitely seems misleading to talk about coca leaf use as cocaine use, given the common expectation for what that means. People reading the newspaper probably don't know all these details, and it isn't spelled out. I can't imagine some guy in a club not feeling like he was robbed after paying for a powdery drug and then receiving a handful of leaves. I can't imagine an Andean woman sitting down for morning tea being pleased to have a bunch of powder dumped in her cup.
- Mtinie 2y ago
  https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Cocaine https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Cocaine Does the molecule C17H21NO4 exist in both the raw, dried leaves of the coca plant, and a powdered, refined extract from the same plant?
  - xnorswap 2y ago
    https://nibblestew.blogspot.com/2020/04/your-statement-is-100-correct-but.html https://nibblestew.blogspot.com/2020/04/your-statement-is-10...
    - Mtinie 2y ago
      Perfect response. I'm chuckling, so thank you. What's also humorous to me is this entire discussion is centered around vernacular usage of a word versus the scientific definition. Cocaine is cocaine, but "cocaine" means different things to some people and not to others.
      - DonHopkins 2y ago
        Bullshit is bullshit, but "bullshit" means different things to some people and not to others.
        Mtinie 2y ago
        Which part is bullshit? The discussion, generally or the pedantic point that the active compound is the same in the various presentations people are arguing about?

They were using cocaine. It was a less concentrated form, sure, but it’s still using the same substance for a psychoactive effect.

by Mtinie 2y ago

They were using cocaine. It was a less concentrated form, sure, but it’s still using the same substance for a psychoactive effect.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> were using cocaine. It was a less concentrated form, sure I was going to say this is pedantically correct, but on closer inspection, it's not even that. Cocaine, the chemical, is present in both coca leaves and cocaine, the drug. When people say cocaine--particularly in this context--they're referring to cocaine the drug, not cocaine the chemical. Cocaine the drug and cocaine the chemical are homonyms, and it's incorrect--fully technically--to confuse their use.

philwelch 2y ago
Cocaine, the chemical, is the active drug ingredient in coca leaves the same way caffeine, the chemical, is the active ingredient in coffee and ethanol, the chemical, is the active ingredient in beer. Powder and crack cocaine deliver much higher doses of cocaine than raw coca leaves, much like liquor is more potent than beer, but the chemical is the drug here. It’s not like it’s chemically transformed from one substance into another like with fermentation; it’s concentrated, like with distillation.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > It’s not like it’s chemically transformed from one substance into another like with fermentation Banks, the financial institutions, are not transformed into banks, exposed riverbeds, when they're proximate to water. Cocaine, the drug, and cocaine, the chemical, are simply homonyms. Claiming the Inca did cocaine is a dad joke, not serious argument.
  - wafflemaker 2y ago
    While I see sense in articulating that cocaine use was different in 17th c. compared to now, I don't believe that you'd argue the same against someone saying that a person drinking beer is drinking alcohol, because beer has less alcohol than vodka.
    - nicoburns 2y ago
      To make this analogous, the words for "alcohol" and "vodka" would have to be the same. The OP is arguing that when people say "doing cocaine" they are generally referring to the high-strength powdered form, not the underlying chemical in general. And that if we interpret the sentence like that (which we should if that's how it's generally understood) then it is not true that people were doing cocaine in the 17th century.
      - School-Cotton 2y ago
        Random tangent: now I’m curious if there are any languages where the word for alcohol and vodka (or whatever is locally the most common spirit) is the same. Seems plausible that there would be.
        kasey_junk 2y ago
        Scottish?
        nicoburns 2y ago
        The word vodka is apparently derived from the Slavic word for water https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vodka#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vodka#Etymology
        School-Cotton 2y ago
        The word "whisky" is derived from the Scottish Gaelic word for "water", too. (Maybe that's what your sibling comment is referring to?)
- BobaFloutist 2y ago
  When people drink coffee, they don't say "I'm taking caffeine." When people eat poppyseed bagels they don't say they're doing codeine or morphine. It's generally understood that "smoking weed" is likely to be a different experience than "taking THC"
  - philwelch 2y ago
    Poppyseed bagels don’t have a psychoactive dose of opioids and cannabis contains multiple cannabinoids, so those examples are totally irrelevant. When it comes to coffee, people are generally aware that caffeine is the active ingredient. If you ask someone, “have you had any caffeine today?”, they’re not going to say “no” if they’ve had six cups of coffee. They’re going to say, “yes, I’ve had six cups of coffee”. They’re not going to try and pick a tedious argument that they didn’t really have caffeine because they drank coffee instead of snorting crushed up caffeine pills.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
kragen 2y ago
Cocaine, the drug, is cocaine, the chemical. They're literally exactly the same thing. They're not homonyms.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Cocaine, the drug, is cocaine, the chemical Nope. Cocaine, the drug, is a cocaine salt. Commonly cocaine hydrochloride, but Wikipedia seems convinced it's also neutralised into sulfates and nitrates. Crack contains cocaine, the chemical, but is not cocaine, the drug.
  - kragen 2y ago
    You're saying that freebase cocaine isn't "cocaine, the drug", but chlorides and sulfates are? It may be relevant to this discussion that salts dissociate in solution, but maybe it won't convince you because it sounds like you're steering painfully close to "the sun goes around the earth because people say 'the sun rises', and therefore it doesn't make sense to talk about sunrise on Mars." That is, it sounds like you're trying to bend over backwards to invent a coherent meaning to impose on the utterances of people who are just confused and ignorant, with the result that your own utterances are losing meaning. The reason people say things like "crack isn't cocaine, the drug" and "coca leaves don't contain cocaine" isn't that their utterances refer to some coherent entity called "cocaine, the drug", which consists of some arbitrary collection of cocaine salts but excludes the hydroxide. They're just wrong, because being wrong is a thing that people do a lot, especially when they're talking about things they don't know about, like chemistry.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > saying that freebase cocaine isn't "cocaine, the drug", but chlorides and sulfates are Yes. So does the DEA. We had separate charges for “cocaine” and “crack” for decades, with the former referring to the powdered salt and the latter to the base. The fact that the active compound is identical is irrelevant. > They're just wrong, because being wrong is a thing that people do a lot, especially when they're talking about things they don't know about, like chemistry We’re talking about language. Not chemistry per se. Someone saying someone doing crack is doing cocaine is simply incorrect in a colloquial context. Sort of like how tomatoes are culinarily a vegetable even if botanically they are fruits.
sinkasapa 2y ago
I suppose the better term would be synecdoche, since the similarity in pronunciation isn't coincidental, like "The sun rose in the morning." and "Look at the pretty rose petals." but is a form of motivated polysemy.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

sinkasapa 2y ago

It definitely seems misleading to talk about coca leaf use as cocaine use, given the common expectation for what that means. People reading the newspaper probably don't know all these details, and it isn't spelled out. I can't imagine some guy in a club not feeling like he was robbed after paying for a powdery drug and then receiving a handful of leaves. I can't imagine an Andean woman sitting down for morning tea being pleased to have a bunch of powder dumped in her cup.

Mtinie 2y ago
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Cocaine https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Cocaine Does the molecule C17H21NO4 exist in both the raw, dried leaves of the coca plant, and a powdered, refined extract from the same plant?
- xnorswap 2y ago
  https://nibblestew.blogspot.com/2020/04/your-statement-is-100-correct-but.html https://nibblestew.blogspot.com/2020/04/your-statement-is-10...
  - Mtinie 2y ago
    Perfect response. I'm chuckling, so thank you. What's also humorous to me is this entire discussion is centered around vernacular usage of a word versus the scientific definition. Cocaine is cocaine, but "cocaine" means different things to some people and not to others.
    - DonHopkins 2y ago
      Bullshit is bullshit, but "bullshit" means different things to some people and not to others.
      - Mtinie 2y ago
        Which part is bullshit? The discussion, generally or the pedantic point that the active compound is the same in the various presentations people are arguing about?