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How to fight back when you see this happening at line management level, but not yet proliferated to upper management? Indian product owner taking mostly to Ind

• ErigmolCt 2y ago
  Cultural bonding is natural, but it's critical that it doesn't undermine team spirit or create divisions. Is there any possibility to escalate the issue with your immediate manager?
• amazinteresting 2y ago
  Best course of action is symmetrical response.
  • bbor 2y ago
    I’m gonna dip into politics a bit for my assertion that “fight racism with racism” isn’t a great move, either for the societal long term or the personal/legal short term.
    • zo1 2y ago
      That is the entire premise of DEI initiatives. It's yet another "an eye for an eye".
      • skywhopper 2y ago
        This is a delusional and hateful lie.
        • zo1 2y ago
          Have you been on the receiving end of DEI? The same way a minority has been on the receiving end of racism? We can all wax lyrical and paint pretty pictures about the noble goals of DEI. But till we get an equal and fair world, the ugly picture is that DEI starts by dividing the pie into smaller parts, and taking from one to give to another, instead of making the pie bigger for everyone. And if history is anything to go by, most "DEI"-like efforts never ever reach that end-goal. They perpetuate indefinitely until they create yet another oppressed or previously-disadvantaged class, and the cycle will just repeat.
          • ethbr1 2y ago
            The biggest problem with DEI policies in practice was that companies entrusted HR to implement them. HR at most companies doesn't do nuance or complexity.
        • kshGa 2y ago
          You could perhaps assume idealism in 2020. Four years later it is clear that DEI is used as a wedge to displace those you do not like and replace them with unskilled believers.
          • j45 2y ago
            DEI is hardly about unskilled alternatives. It’s only about getting people to the table who are equally qualified and capable and overlooked and under represented. Often to the chagrin of most people who are lamenting on it changing.
            • zo1 2y ago
              Please don't take this personally, or as an attack on you. But having seen DEI first-hand, and the "equally qualified" people it has actively displaced and disenfranchised, I'd have to say that this view avoids the ugly reality on the ground wrt DEI. There is an entire country currently affected by it's poor implementation, and it's failure is just seen as more reason for efforts to be doubled and for more-extreme quotas to be put in place.
  • ErigmolCt 2y ago
    It may feel satisfying, but it risks escalating tensions and fostering more division rather than solving the core issue.
  • eru 2y ago
    What makes you think so? Usually, the sanest recourse in these kinds of situations is to cut your losses and vote with your feet.
• trhway 2y ago
  It is hard only about the first 10 years. Then you'll learn to stop worrying and love that. And the whole country will get closer to that with the first Indian President. And there will also be the first Chinese, and the first Hispanic Presidents. World is changing. And the "fighting back" is like pissing against the wind.
• quadrifoliate 2y ago
  > Indians bringing Indian jokes to the table, with no outsider hoping to understand these. Indians bonding to go to Indian restaurants during lunch break, so now most of the colleagues follow suit, how to stop it all? Are you seriously asking how to "fight back" on Indians going to restaurants and joking with each other? As an Indian in a flyover state who has been routinely excluded from golfing events, and had my dietary needs totally ignored while organizing things like steakhouse lunches, this is sort of darkly funny to read.
  • miningape 2y ago
    Yeah, and I'd expect that treatment as a white person working/living in India, and I would adapt to fit in with local customs / culture or else leave. But they are in the US, working for a US company - why is it somehow acceptable when you are a foreigner to create these isolated professional enclaves that exclude the "native" population? (A group of people casually getting together is totally different to someone's work environment where they have to attend to bring a paycheck home - I'm talking exclusively about professional/work environments)
    • quadrifoliate 2y ago
      > Yeah, and I'd expect that treatment as a white person working/living in India, and I would adapt to fit in with local customs / culture. But they are in the US, working for a US company - why is it somehow acceptable when you are a foreigner to create these isolated professional enclaves that exclude the "native" population? Non-Hispanic white Americans are not native to the US, and I don't see a reasonable basis for concluding that non-Hispanic white culture should be the "native" or "default" culture in the US. Sure, it might be the dominant culture — but there are other subcultures like Black or Hispanic cultures that are pretty strong here. Would you feel comfortable asking how to stop a group of Black coworkers from going to a restaurant that serves Black cuisine, or Hispanic coworkers from going to the local taqueria? If not, then why are you singling out Indians?
      • miningape 2y ago
• giantg2 2y ago
  Imagine being autistic and rarely having that bonding you talk about, and certainly not with entire teams.
• ThinkBeat 2y ago
  For some reason that sounds like how white men are described in general, in many quarters now.
• bryanrasmussen 2y ago
  >All these culture things (except for the first regarding PO which is spit-in-the-face level of unprofessionalism) add up, you said it yourself, the first one was unprofessional and should be avoided and may be cause for action. The other things, learn to live as the minority in a group and accept what the group values. I mean maybe your colleagues follow suit about eating Indian food because Indian food is delicious? "Hey you guys know a good Indian food place around here - that's great!" would be my response.
  • throwaway48476 2y ago
    It sounds like they do have a group with its own values.
• nelblu 2y ago
  As an Indian immigrant I had noticed this very early on too. It made me very uncomfortable when some of us would crack jokes in non-English language while there were others around who didn't understand the language. After first few years I stopped working for companies that had mostly Indians in IT. I must say I have been lucky since then to always find a good mix of diverse backgrounds in my team that it has not been a problem.
  • dlahoda 2y ago
    I am from slavic lands, and found out that I prefer not to work within mostly slavic teams, as any other teams with high genetic and cultural cohesions.
  • quadrifoliate 2y ago
    As a fellow Indian immigrant, I actually share your discomfort, and always try to be inclusive and diverse in my social groups. Most of my Indian coworkers and friends behave this way — we came to the US to be a part of a mixed culture, so our social groups should be diverse. What makes me uncomfortable is that this inclusivity is increasingly being taken for granted to the point where not having it starts conversations about how to "fight back". Even though it's not my preference I don't think there is anything wrong with Indians cracking jokes in a non-English language, or going to a restaurant by themselves. You will find that Americans will mysteriously be far more tolerant of, say, a group of French people talking among themselves in French; and going to a French restaurant as a group.
    • zknow 2y ago
      In public, yeah people probably wouldn't care about french speakers, but in a shared environment I definitely would prefer they speak English. My brother use to have to tell his Dutch-Canadian in-laws to speak English when we were at his house. I'd feel the same way at work.
• deleted 2y ago
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• eru 2y ago
  > How to fight back when you see this happening at line management level, but not yet proliferated to upper management? Vote with your feet, if you don't like it?
  • ImJamal 2y ago
    This will just exacerbate the problem though? There will be more and more Indians in the company...
• thinkingtoilet 2y ago
  Now imagine being a minority. You're white colleagues making white jokes. Hiring only white people. Going to white restaurants. Etc... I like when a privileged class gets a contact high of the real world for so many and can't handle it. Employment discrimination is one thing. Having friends and going to lunch is another. For the record, as a white man I've never met, in my entire life, a single Indian person who refused to be friends with me and was only friends with other Indian people. I'm sure they exist. There are ass holes everywhere. This is not an epidemic. However, your response reeks of privilege. "How is it possible I'm not on top?!?!?"
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  • bakugo 2y ago
    > You're white colleagues making white jokes. Hiring only white people. Going to white restaurants. Pretty sure white people aren't mass immigrating to India and doing this there.
    • throwawayha 2y ago
      Eat Pray Love?
  • ttyprintk 2y ago
    I don’t have an opinion if someone is wondering whether one of those cultures is more worthwhile to seek acceptance. But I learned a lot about exclusion from an Indian coworker who was not heterosexual.
  • mellosouls 2y ago
    I think thats an unfair reading of the comment you replied to - racist and exclusionary behaviour is rightly no longer tolerated in policy intent (if not always in actuality) at professional corporations. The issue highlighted here is that it seems at times that there are exceptions that people are afraid to call out and criticise, especially at lower levels.
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• didgeoridoo 2y ago
  I’ve actually had a very different experience — including in my interactions with Cognizant as a vendor. Indian managers acting utterly cruel and abusive to Indian line workers (especially remote or H1B), while being generally kind and accommodating to non-Indian team members. Maybe there was a class/caste thing at play that was totally opaque to me. It was an extremely uncomfortable environment to work in.
  • noisy_boy 2y ago
    Tribalism and slave mentality can coexist.
• deleted 2y ago
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• dotnet00 2y ago
  Even as an Indian, I don't know how that could be tackled, it seems to be kind of systemic. I'd always been around people from all sorts of places, and many of the schools I went to would intentionally keep kids of similar origins apart to force them to mingle with others, so I grew up to prefer being around people from different places over just sticking with other Indians. I've had several experiences of running into people who seem to take pride in being the way you describe. My interpretation has been that they have a chip on their shoulder about not being "westerners" and view anyone who is better integrated as being some sort of traitor. For now, I've only had to experience it in school and university. It's been awful every time. Yours is also a sentiment many people have expressed to me about other Indians once they've opened up to me and realized I won't care if they say something that could be racist.
• mock-possum 2y ago
  > to go to Indian restaurants during lunch break Don’t threaten me with a good time
• commandlinefan 2y ago
  > Indian jokes Now I want to hear an Indian joke.
  • Terretta 2y ago
    What do you call an illogical joke about Indian food? A naan sequitur.
• matrix87 2y ago
  > Indians bonding to go to Indian restaurants during lunch break, so now most of the colleagues follow suit I mean, if you're going out with a group, it's usually majority vote anyway And frankly they have good food