5 ms·

If this is true -- and I think it is -- then YouTube, Instagram, Roblox, most of the mobile gaming industry, and loads of other infinite dopamine hit machines a

by api 2y ago

If this is true -- and I think it is -- then YouTube, Instagram, Roblox, most of the mobile gaming industry, and loads of other infinite dopamine hit machines are guilty of the same thing. I'm very glad my kids have never really even seen TikTok. We had to ban YouTube, and doing so was possibly the single best boundary we've set as parents. If we hadn't we'd probably have never spoken to our kids again. They'd get on that thing and just be gone for unlimited amounts of time watching the most mindless idiotic trash you can imagine. These days YT is getting even worse. It's full of AI slop including pop science channels full of completely false AI-generated information. It's absolutely cursed. I guess TikTok is like everything bad about YouTube but with less attention span and controlled by the CCP.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
dylan604 2y ago
[flagged]
- BadHumans 2y ago
  You have no idea the amount of psychology and research that goes into manipulating people in mobile games. The Manhattan Project wishes it had the level of science that goes into Candy Crush.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    again though, making something more addictive to continue playing the game is still not the same as experimenting on someone's emotional well being, confusing real life vs post-fact make believe
    - BadHumans 2y ago
      Game studios are quite literally producing research papers about using their game to experiment on their player's emotional well being. Riot Games and League of Legends being one of the most notorious examples but more than a few studios do this.
  - eatsyourtacos 2y ago
    That's MOBILE games.. it's not video games in general. Yes, 99% of mobile games are utter crap that don't try to create an actual game, only a way to make money. My kids have only played a handful of mobile games but they have been deep into computer games for 8-10 years. You absolutely cannot just lump video games in general into that. Not to mention that I want my kids to be kids and have fun, they have also learned an insane amount from playing video games.. whether it be helping with their reading, math, optimization, and also social learning.. learning how to play together and with their friends, having conflicts and resolving them etc.
- smrtinsert 2y ago
  Gaming moved from fun to purposefully addictive/parasitic a while ago.
mainecoder 2y ago
Please please please encourage them to read books by giving them rewards and make them do activities that require concentration also send them to a mathcamp or a cscamp and make sure they get the education they need the US education system is getting worse every year with students who can barely read and can't do algebra coming to college.
zardo 2y ago
> I guess TikTok is like everything bad about YouTube but with less attention span YouTube has "Shorts", attempting to duplicate the TikTok experience.
aaroninsf 2y ago
Hello, fellow luddite! We have also managed to keep our kids, somehow, off any Meta product, TikTok, and mostly, YT. Even as they roll into and through highschool. There are occasional moments when the fact that "everyone" else is on them, are challenging. But it's been worth it.
- api 2y ago
  I don't see it as luddite at all any more than not allowing your kids to use cocaine means you are against pharmaceuticals or medicines. The problem isn't the screen. It's what's on the screen. It's specific products that are engineered to maximize addiction. Our kids play video games and we don't limit access to kids Netflix and many other things. They'll play games, watch a show, whatever, and then do something else. With YouTube they would watch, and watch, and watch, and watch, forever, to the exclusion of all other activities, and when we looked at what they were watching it was 100% repetitive content-free mesmerizing trash. The biggest difference we saw is that when friends were around they'd drop video games or shows to play with their friends, but with YouTube they would not. Nothing could compete with trash YouTube videos. Examples included random incoherent blabbering while playing video games, videos of cars running over expensive things, unboxing videos, disturbing AI-generated trash, etc. The algorithm seems to have a bias toward increasingly mindless content. You can start with something mildly interesting and pretty soon you're watching someone smash things for six hours. I see a few replies here questioning this and being like "but my kids are fine." It's possible that different people vary in terms of their susceptibility to this stuff in the same way that different people vary in, say, their propensity to become addicted to opioids. There are people who can use opioids for a while and then just walk away and there are people who use them once and think about them for the rest of their lives. The difference is probably genetic or brain developmental.
vasco 2y ago
> These days YT is getting even worse. It's full of AI slop including pop science channels full of completely false AI-generated information. It's absolutely cursed. How would you know if you don't watch YouTube? Or I hope you don't, to be morally consistent with your own positions.
- sarchertech 2y ago
  I have a beer now and again despite not letting my kids do so.
  - vasco 2y ago
    Their position is wider than the kid ban. Why would you watch something you characterize as such. So two options, either they are hypocritical and inconsistent and actually watch a bunch of YouTube to form such an informed position that it is all slop OR they don't actually watch so they wouldn't really know. The kid part is almost besides the point. I bet on hypocritical, watching a bunch of hours but then complaining that it all sucks, I've seen plenty of people do that.
    - AlexandrB 2y ago
      How is that hypocritical? Many smokers know they're killing themselves and if asked will discourage you from starting, but they keep smoking. Addictive experiences are like that sometimes - it's harder to quit than to not start. Edit: Thinking more about this sentence: > So two options, either they are hypocritical and inconsistent and actually watch a bunch of YouTube to form such an informed position that it is all slop OR they don't actually watch so they wouldn't really know. Doesn't this imply that no one is in a position to call YouTube content crap since they either haven't seen it or are hypocrites? Whose opinion that YouTube content is crap would be valid then or are only positive opinions about YouTube valid?
onemoresoop 2y ago
My kid is allowed to watch 2 hours of youtube a week, but it's always supervised by me or my partner. He chooses what he wants to watch and gravitates towards science experiments, cartoons and some shows for kids. He stumbled a few times into dead ends such as mindless content (other kids or adults influencers playing Minecraft for example) but we guided him out of it. He now knows how to stay away from all that. As parents we do a lot more to keep him engaged with reading, outdoor play and other activities. Technology is an inescapable part of the future but we try to mitigate its bad effects and let him take the good parts. Seems to be working wonderfully. The goal is for him to realize what is good and what's bad without parental policing. Apart from Youtube there's Duolingo music and math that he does a few days a week. It's wonderful to see him resist the pull, turn off the device and go to some other activity by himself.
- rightbyte 2y ago
  Maybe Libretube etc. might be good to use with children? One of the main problems with Youtube is the algorithmic feed of recommendation. For kids it seem to converge in 'lets play', unboxing of toys and AI spam.
  - api 2y ago
    The problem is absolutely the YT algorithm. You can start them on decent stuff but if they follow the gradient they will end up in a gutter of absolute trash. I feel like this experiment in rapid feedback optimization for engagement has yielded a truth about the human condition that ought to become one of those "laws": trash maximizes engagement. It sounds pessimistic and awful but I think it's one of those things that makes sense in retrospect. Consider the following: Let's say two people walk past you on the street. One of them says 'hi' and you have a brief light chat with them. The other smears themselves with peanut butter and starts clucking like a chicken and saluting Hitler. Which maximizes engagement? This implies that any system that optimized for maximum engagement will converge on some kind of trash. This is interesting: https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/1bn8gfq/researchers_uncover_pornification_trend_among/ https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/1bn8gfq/researcher...
ysofunny 2y ago
the real killer feature of tiktok is how easy, how much it encourages (or at least used to?) remixing anything and contributing your own content back. it's like youtube combined with instagram upload fitlers or something like that
eatsyourtacos 2y ago
>We had to ban YouTube, and doing so was possibly the single best boundary we've set as parents Sounds horrible. My young teens have been on youtube for like 6+ years. They can watch hour long videos no problem. So what if they are trash sometimes? They are into it, paying attention and it's their entertainment. But then they also end up watching and learning so many different things they aren't going to see anywhere else. Or randomly come across chess videos then start watching those etc. My kids have more screen time than 99% of kids I know, yet they are super well behaved, have many interests, do well in school, etc. I couldn't ask for better kids. >If we hadn't we'd probably have never spoken to our kids again. Sounds like a You problem. Not a YouTube problem.
- tstrimple 2y ago
  I’m in a similar situation. Haven’t found a need to lock down things like YouTube or even TikTok. My kids aren’t endlessly scrolling. They are playing games with friends or reading or practicing sports / music. My middlest daughter recently took up pottery and previously knitting because of content she watched on TikTok. My youngest is constantly asking to do home chemistry stuff she learned watching such content. We had to cut her off from the home made slime, but not the content that got her interested enough to want to try it herself. My children are more well rounded due to these services. Far from the mindless doom scrollers everyone else claims these apps turn kids into.
moduspol 2y ago
> I guess TikTok is like everything bad about YouTube but with less attention span and controlled by the CCP. I feel like YouTube has more content with actual effort put into it, and if you took the top N videos on each platform on any given day, the ones on YouTube would be substantially better. Can I prove that? Nope. Does it even matter if the algorithm is just feeding you trash anyway? Perhaps not. But at least YouTube *can* be used in a way that's not absolute mind rot. If that's even possible with TikTok, it's gotta be done by a substantially smaller chunk of the user base.

by api 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

dylan604 2y ago

[flagged]

BadHumans 2y ago
You have no idea the amount of psychology and research that goes into manipulating people in mobile games. The Manhattan Project wishes it had the level of science that goes into Candy Crush.
- dylan604 2y ago
  again though, making something more addictive to continue playing the game is still not the same as experimenting on someone's emotional well being, confusing real life vs post-fact make believe
  - BadHumans 2y ago
    Game studios are quite literally producing research papers about using their game to experiment on their player's emotional well being. Riot Games and League of Legends being one of the most notorious examples but more than a few studios do this.
- eatsyourtacos 2y ago
  That's MOBILE games.. it's not video games in general. Yes, 99% of mobile games are utter crap that don't try to create an actual game, only a way to make money. My kids have only played a handful of mobile games but they have been deep into computer games for 8-10 years. You absolutely cannot just lump video games in general into that. Not to mention that I want my kids to be kids and have fun, they have also learned an insane amount from playing video games.. whether it be helping with their reading, math, optimization, and also social learning.. learning how to play together and with their friends, having conflicts and resolving them etc.
smrtinsert 2y ago
Gaming moved from fun to purposefully addictive/parasitic a while ago.

mainecoder 2y ago

Please please please encourage them to read books by giving them rewards and make them do activities that require concentration also send them to a mathcamp or a cscamp and make sure they get the education they need the US education system is getting worse every year with students who can barely read and can't do algebra coming to college.

zardo 2y ago

> I guess TikTok is like everything bad about YouTube but with less attention span YouTube has "Shorts", attempting to duplicate the TikTok experience.

aaroninsf 2y ago

Hello, fellow luddite! We have also managed to keep our kids, somehow, off any Meta product, TikTok, and mostly, YT. Even as they roll into and through highschool. There are occasional moments when the fact that "everyone" else is on them, are challenging. But it's been worth it.

api 2y ago
I don't see it as luddite at all any more than not allowing your kids to use cocaine means you are against pharmaceuticals or medicines. The problem isn't the screen. It's what's on the screen. It's specific products that are engineered to maximize addiction. Our kids play video games and we don't limit access to kids Netflix and many other things. They'll play games, watch a show, whatever, and then do something else. With YouTube they would watch, and watch, and watch, and watch, forever, to the exclusion of all other activities, and when we looked at what they were watching it was 100% repetitive content-free mesmerizing trash. The biggest difference we saw is that when friends were around they'd drop video games or shows to play with their friends, but with YouTube they would not. Nothing could compete with trash YouTube videos. Examples included random incoherent blabbering while playing video games, videos of cars running over expensive things, unboxing videos, disturbing AI-generated trash, etc. The algorithm seems to have a bias toward increasingly mindless content. You can start with something mildly interesting and pretty soon you're watching someone smash things for six hours. I see a few replies here questioning this and being like "but my kids are fine." It's possible that different people vary in terms of their susceptibility to this stuff in the same way that different people vary in, say, their propensity to become addicted to opioids. There are people who can use opioids for a while and then just walk away and there are people who use them once and think about them for the rest of their lives. The difference is probably genetic or brain developmental.

vasco 2y ago

> These days YT is getting even worse. It's full of AI slop including pop science channels full of completely false AI-generated information. It's absolutely cursed. How would you know if you don't watch YouTube? Or I hope you don't, to be morally consistent with your own positions.

sarchertech 2y ago
I have a beer now and again despite not letting my kids do so.
- vasco 2y ago
  Their position is wider than the kid ban. Why would you watch something you characterize as such. So two options, either they are hypocritical and inconsistent and actually watch a bunch of YouTube to form such an informed position that it is all slop OR they don't actually watch so they wouldn't really know. The kid part is almost besides the point. I bet on hypocritical, watching a bunch of hours but then complaining that it all sucks, I've seen plenty of people do that.
  - AlexandrB 2y ago
    How is that hypocritical? Many smokers know they're killing themselves and if asked will discourage you from starting, but they keep smoking. Addictive experiences are like that sometimes - it's harder to quit than to not start. Edit: Thinking more about this sentence: > So two options, either they are hypocritical and inconsistent and actually watch a bunch of YouTube to form such an informed position that it is all slop OR they don't actually watch so they wouldn't really know. Doesn't this imply that no one is in a position to call YouTube content crap since they either haven't seen it or are hypocrites? Whose opinion that YouTube content is crap would be valid then or are only positive opinions about YouTube valid?

onemoresoop 2y ago

My kid is allowed to watch 2 hours of youtube a week, but it's always supervised by me or my partner. He chooses what he wants to watch and gravitates towards science experiments, cartoons and some shows for kids. He stumbled a few times into dead ends such as mindless content (other kids or adults influencers playing Minecraft for example) but we guided him out of it. He now knows how to stay away from all that. As parents we do a lot more to keep him engaged with reading, outdoor play and other activities. Technology is an inescapable part of the future but we try to mitigate its bad effects and let him take the good parts. Seems to be working wonderfully. The goal is for him to realize what is good and what's bad without parental policing. Apart from Youtube there's Duolingo music and math that he does a few days a week. It's wonderful to see him resist the pull, turn off the device and go to some other activity by himself.

rightbyte 2y ago
Maybe Libretube etc. might be good to use with children? One of the main problems with Youtube is the algorithmic feed of recommendation. For kids it seem to converge in 'lets play', unboxing of toys and AI spam.
- api 2y ago
  The problem is absolutely the YT algorithm. You can start them on decent stuff but if they follow the gradient they will end up in a gutter of absolute trash. I feel like this experiment in rapid feedback optimization for engagement has yielded a truth about the human condition that ought to become one of those "laws": trash maximizes engagement. It sounds pessimistic and awful but I think it's one of those things that makes sense in retrospect. Consider the following: Let's say two people walk past you on the street. One of them says 'hi' and you have a brief light chat with them. The other smears themselves with peanut butter and starts clucking like a chicken and saluting Hitler. Which maximizes engagement? This implies that any system that optimized for maximum engagement will converge on some kind of trash. This is interesting: https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/1bn8gfq/researchers_uncover_pornification_trend_among/ https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/1bn8gfq/researcher...

ysofunny 2y ago

the real killer feature of tiktok is how easy, how much it encourages (or at least used to?) remixing anything and contributing your own content back. it's like youtube combined with instagram upload fitlers or something like that

eatsyourtacos 2y ago

>We had to ban YouTube, and doing so was possibly the single best boundary we've set as parents Sounds horrible. My young teens have been on youtube for like 6+ years. They can watch hour long videos no problem. So what if they are trash sometimes? They are into it, paying attention and it's their entertainment. But then they also end up watching and learning so many different things they aren't going to see anywhere else. Or randomly come across chess videos then start watching those etc. My kids have more screen time than 99% of kids I know, yet they are super well behaved, have many interests, do well in school, etc. I couldn't ask for better kids. >If we hadn't we'd probably have never spoken to our kids again. Sounds like a You problem. Not a YouTube problem.

tstrimple 2y ago
I’m in a similar situation. Haven’t found a need to lock down things like YouTube or even TikTok. My kids aren’t endlessly scrolling. They are playing games with friends or reading or practicing sports / music. My middlest daughter recently took up pottery and previously knitting because of content she watched on TikTok. My youngest is constantly asking to do home chemistry stuff she learned watching such content. We had to cut her off from the home made slime, but not the content that got her interested enough to want to try it herself. My children are more well rounded due to these services. Far from the mindless doom scrollers everyone else claims these apps turn kids into.

moduspol 2y ago

> I guess TikTok is like everything bad about YouTube but with less attention span and controlled by the CCP. I feel like YouTube has more content with actual effort put into it, and if you took the top N videos on each platform on any given day, the ones on YouTube would be substantially better. Can I prove that? Nope. Does it even matter if the algorithm is just feeding you trash anyway? Perhaps not. But at least YouTube *can* be used in a way that's not absolute mind rot. If that's even possible with TikTok, it's gotta be done by a substantially smaller chunk of the user base.