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Just watched the nobel prize live stream, surprised by the topic, looks very engineering to me rather than physics, do algorithms make physics subsidiary?

Anon84 2y ago
Both Hopefield Networks and Boltzmann machines trace their origins and motivations to Statistical Mechanics and Spin Glasses. Coincidently, Giorgio Parisi got the 2021 Nobel prize for his work on spin glasses
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
adamnemecek 2y ago
It’s closely related to statistical mechanics.
aDyslecticCrow 2y ago
The physics prize has historically taken the role of both "innovation/engineering" topics and "mathematics". It's more broad than simply physics. The most important factor tends to be the positive impact on society, as that's one of the price's core tenets.
- andrepd 2y ago
  >The most important factor tends to be the positive impact on society Making it even more baffling that this won then
  - choilive 2y ago
    If you don't think machine learning and neural networks have made massive positive contributions to humanity then you are naive.
    - DangitBobby 2y ago
      "Massive" seems overstated. Also doubt that it's net positive.
      - aDyslecticCrow 2y ago
        You're probably only thinking about the modern chatbots when you say that.
        zeofig 2y ago
        Perhaps you have less idea what he's thinking than you think you do.
  - aDyslecticCrow 2y ago
    I can understand the sentiment against the current "AI" crace with chatbots. But are you dismissing neural networks as a whole as non-impactful? What about; - Improved weather forecasts - Protein folding - Medical imaging and diagnostics - Text-to-speech and voice recognition - Language Translation - Finance fraud detection - Supply chain and logistics optimization - Natural disaster prediction
- quaxi 2y ago
  In the original will, invention is given the same weight as discovery. One could also argue that in 1895, applied computer science and information theory would be considered physics.
- hackernewds 2y ago
  why? this should be questioned
  - aDyslecticCrow 2y ago
    The original wording explicitly mentions "discovery or invention within the field of physics", so that wording has been reflected in some of the prices over the years. Also, it's a price based on a will from over 100 years ago, managed by a private institution. The institution can be as arbitrary as it wants. They don't need to answer to anyone.
viraj_shah 2y ago
I am really surprised. I would have guessed that a Nobel Prize would be awarded to advancements in the field itself. Not for inspirations from it or to tools that led to advancements. Although as I write this I'm sure there have been several prizes awarded to scientists / engineers who have developed tools to advance physics. Like radio astronomy? Still surprised though.
- parodysbird 2y ago
  Some other recent cases of the prize being given to an engineering contribution: - 2018 was for chirped pulse amplification, which is most commonly used in medicine (LASIK surgery for example) - 2014 was for basically for LED lights - 2010 was for a method for producing graphene - 2009 was for both charge-coupled device, which is a component for digital imaging (including regular consumer digital cameras), and fibre-optic cables
  - ladams 2y ago
    CPA is very very widely used in experimental physics, so I don’t really think it belongs on this list.
    - parodysbird 2y ago
      Well yeah, so are neural nets. I just meant that these are engineering accomplishments, not scientific per se. Of course experimental science will often take advantage of cutting edge technology, including from computer science.
      - adw 2y ago
        NNs have absolutely revolutionized systems biology (itself a John Hopfield joint, and the AlphaFold team are reasonably likely to get a Nobel for medicine and physiology, possibly as soon as 'this year') and are becoming relevant in all kinds of weird parts of solid-state physics (trained functionals for DFT, eg https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-64619-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-64619-8). The idea that academic disciplines are in any way isolated from each other is nonsense. Machine learning is computer science; it's also information theory; that means it's thermodynamics, which means it's physics. (Or, rather, it can be understood properly through all of these lenses). John Hopfield himself has written about this; he views his work as physics because _it is performed from the viewpoint of a physicist_. Disciplines are subjective, not objective, phenomena.
andrepd 2y ago
Eh. """AI""" is all the rage so I guess even the nobel in physics has to have something to do with this. Not a fan
stainablesteel 2y ago
i reason it from the perspective that its because they've found a way to make a machine out of bits that no one's ever made before, they're physical objects
jhbadger 2y ago
Well in 1912, the physics prize went to a guy who designed a better light for light houses and buoys to prevent shipwrecks! Actually, most early Nobels went to practical things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustaf_Dal%C3%A9n https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustaf_Dal%C3%A9n
- hackernewds 2y ago
  you could consider them very important building blocks. if far enough in time, the wheel would've been a worthy winner

Anon84 2y ago

Both Hopefield Networks and Boltzmann machines trace their origins and motivations to Statistical Mechanics and Spin Glasses. Coincidently, Giorgio Parisi got the 2021 Nobel prize for his work on spin glasses

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

adamnemecek 2y ago

It’s closely related to statistical mechanics.

aDyslecticCrow 2y ago

The physics prize has historically taken the role of both "innovation/engineering" topics and "mathematics". It's more broad than simply physics. The most important factor tends to be the positive impact on society, as that's one of the price's core tenets.

andrepd 2y ago
>The most important factor tends to be the positive impact on society Making it even more baffling that this won then
- choilive 2y ago
  If you don't think machine learning and neural networks have made massive positive contributions to humanity then you are naive.
  - DangitBobby 2y ago
    "Massive" seems overstated. Also doubt that it's net positive.
    - aDyslecticCrow 2y ago
      You're probably only thinking about the modern chatbots when you say that.
      - zeofig 2y ago
        Perhaps you have less idea what he's thinking than you think you do.
- aDyslecticCrow 2y ago
  I can understand the sentiment against the current "AI" crace with chatbots. But are you dismissing neural networks as a whole as non-impactful? What about; - Improved weather forecasts - Protein folding - Medical imaging and diagnostics - Text-to-speech and voice recognition - Language Translation - Finance fraud detection - Supply chain and logistics optimization - Natural disaster prediction
quaxi 2y ago
In the original will, invention is given the same weight as discovery. One could also argue that in 1895, applied computer science and information theory would be considered physics.
hackernewds 2y ago
why? this should be questioned
- aDyslecticCrow 2y ago
  The original wording explicitly mentions "discovery or invention within the field of physics", so that wording has been reflected in some of the prices over the years. Also, it's a price based on a will from over 100 years ago, managed by a private institution. The institution can be as arbitrary as it wants. They don't need to answer to anyone.

viraj_shah 2y ago

I am really surprised. I would have guessed that a Nobel Prize would be awarded to advancements in the field itself. Not for inspirations from it or to tools that led to advancements. Although as I write this I'm sure there have been several prizes awarded to scientists / engineers who have developed tools to advance physics. Like radio astronomy? Still surprised though.

parodysbird 2y ago
Some other recent cases of the prize being given to an engineering contribution: - 2018 was for chirped pulse amplification, which is most commonly used in medicine (LASIK surgery for example) - 2014 was for basically for LED lights - 2010 was for a method for producing graphene - 2009 was for both charge-coupled device, which is a component for digital imaging (including regular consumer digital cameras), and fibre-optic cables
- ladams 2y ago
  CPA is very very widely used in experimental physics, so I don’t really think it belongs on this list.
  - parodysbird 2y ago
    Well yeah, so are neural nets. I just meant that these are engineering accomplishments, not scientific per se. Of course experimental science will often take advantage of cutting edge technology, including from computer science.
    - adw 2y ago
      NNs have absolutely revolutionized systems biology (itself a John Hopfield joint, and the AlphaFold team are reasonably likely to get a Nobel for medicine and physiology, possibly as soon as 'this year') and are becoming relevant in all kinds of weird parts of solid-state physics (trained functionals for DFT, eg https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-64619-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-64619-8). The idea that academic disciplines are in any way isolated from each other is nonsense. Machine learning is computer science; it's also information theory; that means it's thermodynamics, which means it's physics. (Or, rather, it can be understood properly through all of these lenses). John Hopfield himself has written about this; he views his work as physics because _it is performed from the viewpoint of a physicist_. Disciplines are subjective, not objective, phenomena.

andrepd 2y ago

Eh. """AI""" is all the rage so I guess even the nobel in physics has to have something to do with this. Not a fan

stainablesteel 2y ago

i reason it from the perspective that its because they've found a way to make a machine out of bits that no one's ever made before, they're physical objects

jhbadger 2y ago

Well in 1912, the physics prize went to a guy who designed a better light for light houses and buoys to prevent shipwrecks! Actually, most early Nobels went to practical things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustaf_Dal%C3%A9n https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustaf_Dal%C3%A9n

hackernewds 2y ago
you could consider them very important building blocks. if far enough in time, the wheel would've been a worthy winner