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Are you sure? No offence, but I don't think there's anything to understand here. If we could solve climate change without "addressing thoughtless consumerism,

Are you sure? No offence, but I don't think there's anything to understand here. If we could solve climate change without "addressing thoughtless consumerism, corporate impunity, and lack of international accountability" we would all be f'ing _thrilled_. As I type this Hurricane Helene just destroyed a good chunk of inland North Carolina (!!!) and Hurricane Wilton was just upgraded to a "category 5" storm. If we could solve climate change the easy way we'd all be _thrilled_, because then we'd actually solve climate change.

clarity20 2y ago
I don't see why climate change needs "solving" per se, or how it can be "solved." To take your example, there have always been hurricanes. It's not correct to infer there's a human-induced tendency toward destruction that can be reversed by humans, or that yet another hurricane is actually a change to the climate in the first place.
- moomin 2y ago
  It isn’t correct to infer that from the fact that hurricanes exist, no. Nor is it correct to ignore the decades of peer-reviewed research that concludes that we really are causing more hurricanes on the basis that hurricanes have always existed.
inglor_cz 2y ago
"we would all be f'ing _thrilled_." I think the argument is pretty much the opposite: not everyone would be thrilled. The wannabe priest class (think of Greta and her How dare you!), which is always with us, would be frustrated from the lack of something to preach about. Of course there is always Israel vs. Palestine.
- tovej 2y ago
  I myself am convinced that man-made global warming can't be stopped without changing the way our political economies work, and I happen to believe that Palestinians are people and therefore deserve basic human rights (which they do not currently have). I'm also a researcher. I _would_ be thrilled if there was an expedient way to solve climate change. But the best systems models for the earth all tell us that there's one way to solve the issue: just leave the carbon in the ground. That's it. Stop extracting it. Nothing else will solve the problem, it's a really simple, really bad, feedback loop. This characterization of environmental or Palestinian activists as wanting to have the moral high ground is, imo, a knee jerk reaction. The people on the street aren't in it for clout, they're doing it because it is the right thing and they feel compelled to act. What gets me moving is not wanting to feel morally superior (a religious aspect, more at home in right wing politics), but an anxiety for the future, which is projected to include horrible death and suffering due to obvious problems that we could all fix if we just decided to recognize them.
  - inglor_cz 2y ago
    The motivations of regular participants vs. leaders may be rather different. Only a specific type of person is attracted to leading crowds.
    - foldr 2y ago
      You can apply the same cynicism to any political or protest movement. Not sure that it tells us very much.
      - inglor_cz 2y ago
        I agree with your first sentence, only I would replace the word "cynicism" with "skepticism". And I think it is actually useful. People will try to manipulate other people through emotions, and mobs are easy to manipulate. One should have fairly high barriers before joining a street mob, because its potential destructive power is enormous, and it also tends to elevate unsavory characters to positions of power. I am not saying that those barriers should be infinitely high, but fairly high. For us humans, it is easy to succumb to "righteousness in numbers".
        dmbche 2y ago
        So free association is less than ideal is what you're getting at?
        inglor_cz 2y ago
        If you abstract away enough, you will always get to "X is less than ideal". Food is less than ideal, war is less than ideal, death is less than ideal, HN is less than ideal. Are you satisfied with this sort of Twitter-like posting and thinking? I am not. Pixels are basically free and we should strive to post more than one-sentence snarks. For one-sentence snarks and drive-by dismissals, Reddit is the ideal territory.
        2y ago
- dmbche 2y ago
  I highly recommend the feeling of living grass on the palm of your hand my friend. Or the kiss of the suns rays.

clarity20 2y ago

I don't see why climate change needs "solving" per se, or how it can be "solved." To take your example, there have always been hurricanes. It's not correct to infer there's a human-induced tendency toward destruction that can be reversed by humans, or that yet another hurricane is actually a change to the climate in the first place.

moomin 2y ago
It isn’t correct to infer that from the fact that hurricanes exist, no. Nor is it correct to ignore the decades of peer-reviewed research that concludes that we really are causing more hurricanes on the basis that hurricanes have always existed.

inglor_cz 2y ago

"we would all be f'ing _thrilled_." I think the argument is pretty much the opposite: not everyone would be thrilled. The wannabe priest class (think of Greta and her How dare you!), which is always with us, would be frustrated from the lack of something to preach about. Of course there is always Israel vs. Palestine.

tovej 2y ago
I myself am convinced that man-made global warming can't be stopped without changing the way our political economies work, and I happen to believe that Palestinians are people and therefore deserve basic human rights (which they do not currently have). I'm also a researcher. I _would_ be thrilled if there was an expedient way to solve climate change. But the best systems models for the earth all tell us that there's one way to solve the issue: just leave the carbon in the ground. That's it. Stop extracting it. Nothing else will solve the problem, it's a really simple, really bad, feedback loop. This characterization of environmental or Palestinian activists as wanting to have the moral high ground is, imo, a knee jerk reaction. The people on the street aren't in it for clout, they're doing it because it is the right thing and they feel compelled to act. What gets me moving is not wanting to feel morally superior (a religious aspect, more at home in right wing politics), but an anxiety for the future, which is projected to include horrible death and suffering due to obvious problems that we could all fix if we just decided to recognize them.
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  The motivations of regular participants vs. leaders may be rather different. Only a specific type of person is attracted to leading crowds.
  - foldr 2y ago
    You can apply the same cynicism to any political or protest movement. Not sure that it tells us very much.
    - inglor_cz 2y ago
      I agree with your first sentence, only I would replace the word "cynicism" with "skepticism". And I think it is actually useful. People will try to manipulate other people through emotions, and mobs are easy to manipulate. One should have fairly high barriers before joining a street mob, because its potential destructive power is enormous, and it also tends to elevate unsavory characters to positions of power. I am not saying that those barriers should be infinitely high, but fairly high. For us humans, it is easy to succumb to "righteousness in numbers".
      - dmbche 2y ago
        So free association is less than ideal is what you're getting at?
        inglor_cz 2y ago
        If you abstract away enough, you will always get to "X is less than ideal". Food is less than ideal, war is less than ideal, death is less than ideal, HN is less than ideal. Are you satisfied with this sort of Twitter-like posting and thinking? I am not. Pixels are basically free and we should strive to post more than one-sentence snarks. For one-sentence snarks and drive-by dismissals, Reddit is the ideal territory.
        2y ago
dmbche 2y ago
I highly recommend the feeling of living grass on the palm of your hand my friend. Or the kiss of the suns rays.