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This is one reason I believe "right to repair" laws are so important. The environmental damage of producing the device is already done. Make it last as long as

This is one reason I believe "right to repair" laws are so important. The environmental damage of producing the device is already done. Make it last as long as possible. Reduce, reuse... then recycle. Re-using devices helps us also reduce the number of new devices needed... which is what probably scares the corporate oligarchy. If we're not buying new phones every couple of years how will the stock prices keep going up? Never the less, the devices we make these days can last a long, long time. I've been repairing and maintaining iPhone 5's, 7's, and 8's that are no where near their end of life. The iPhone has a couple of small electrolytic capacitors which should have a useful life of at least 20 years. And can be replaced! The batteries and screens can replaced. These devices can last much longer than we give them credit for. But tech companies have been struggling to make it illegal or difficult to repair for a long time. I've been seeing photojournalist projects such as this since the late 90s at least (longer perhaps). In North America we had a culture that valued repairing and building things that lasted. It's as good a time as any to push for this to return! Support policy makers that are pushing for right-to-repair and environmental protection! And pick up a new hobby if you are able. Support your local tech geeks if you can!

echelon_musk 2y ago
> Re-using devices helps us also reduce the number of new devices needed... which is what probably scares the corporate oligarchy I agree with you. Reusing and repairing appliances flies in the face of current capitalism. We don't need new models of phones, laptops or cars every year. Sadly I'm not optimistic that we will be able to dial back greed any time soon.
- amelius 2y ago
  We need to reinvent capitalism. (Why does my phone need to be upgraded every year, while capitalism is kept at version 0.1beta?)
  - knowitnone 2y ago
    YOU CHOSE to upgrade your phone every year. I don't see a gun to your head.
    - mindslight 2y ago
      Even if they had a gun to their head, would doing so not still be a "choice" by your apparent definition?
  - the_gorilla 2y ago
    Every single thread has someone complaining about capitalism. It's childish, and more importantly, not interesting. We get it, capitalism bad, but communists produce even more e-waste.
    - immibis 2y ago
      Capitalism is the system we are in which is the system that creates the actual problems of this system. We are talking about the actual problems in real life and not the theoretical problems that may exist in a parallel universe.
      - the_gorilla 2y ago
        No, it's just vague whining about the idea of capitalism itself. Updating capitalism is not talking about any specific problems.
  - roenxi 2y ago
    > while capitalism is kept at version 0.1beta?) The process of developing capitalism has taken millennia and in the last few centuries has had far more intellectual horsepower put into it than developing phones. Lots of iterations have been tried, it can't be compared to a beta product at all. The major problem we have on that front is people keep trying to regress backwards to models of organisation that have already been tried and are well understood not to work effectively - because almost nobody votes based on historical learnings. Once we have >100 years experience in building phones there probably won't be annual upgrades any more either, it'll be like-for-like replacements.
    - fragmede 2y ago
      What do you count as iterations? There's never been a violent throwing out of capitalism to be tried with a different version of capitalism. The throwing out of capitalism has been to replace it with something else, not more capitalism. And has the horsepower been put into developing capitalism, or has it been put into making more money for the people wielding it, rather than developing the best system there could be?
      - immibis 2y ago
        Capitalism concentrates power to the top; those powerful people are the ones who have had the power to reinvent it so far. E.g. in 2008 when the Fed began QE Infinity, which never ended.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - AlexandrB 2y ago
        Why does it have to be violent? Every election heralds a slightly different version of capitalism based on the regulatory and tax priorities of who is now in charge. Edit: Think of it in software terms. Version 1.1 or even 2.0 is normally not a complete rewrite of version 1.0, instead it's an iterative set of changes. Rewrites are often considered to be a bad idea.
  - immibis 2y ago
    Capitalism has actually been reinvented many times - basically every time there's a significant change in how the Federal Reserve operates, this is a reinvention of capitalism. It occurred memorably in 2008 and recently in 2024. This new 2024 version hasn't had time to reach a stable state yet. It was preceded by cryptocurrency bubble capitalism since 2020.
  - joncrocks 2y ago
    Did someone invent capitalism? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#Definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#Definition It's a loose concept, a bag of things including basic human behaviour/self interest, mutually beneficial transactions between willing participants and the rules provided by governments.
yndoendo 2y ago
Refurbish and repairing viable electronics does not help keep Apple's, Google's or any manufacturer's stock high. Stock spikes high when the news organizations can talk about all the latest hardware and how sales doing well. Why would those companies CEOs want to hurt their golden package before exiting the industry? One way to start penetrating right-to-repair would be to force device unlocking after ownership, device payed off, and end-of-life classification by the manufacture. Next step would be for the manufacturers to require publishing open documents for 3rd party support without having to sign a NDA. Both of those require reverse engineering. With camera technology being so complex, this is the feature that limits alternative OS usage with continual security updates after the manufactures give up. Maybe rephrasing right-to-repair as "consumer protection" could help push it through better with less tech savvy consumers.
- ToucanLoucan 2y ago
  Consumers aren't the issue. Consumer support for right to repair is broad. The issue is the government doesn't give a shit what consumers think the vast majority of the time, they're bought and paid for by corporate lobbyists.
  - nickff 2y ago
    Consumer support for right to repair is broad, so long as it comes at no cost to them. People don’t want to pay to fix things, and they don’t want to accept any reduction in performance either.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - t0bia_s 2y ago
      Why would you pay same price for repairing a shoes when you can get a new one for similar price?
      - paulryanrogers 2y ago
amelius 2y ago
This is also why general purpose computers should not be crippled by the manufacturer. Or at least there should be a way to uncripple them.
- agentultra 2y ago
  So many devices are general purpose computers that are treated like a specialized device. eg: modern games consoles. A Nintendo 3DS is an ARM11 board. You can run Linux on it. Most people don’t because it doesn’t look like a “computer.” And because they wouldn’t know how as it takes a very specific skill set to make it work. They do get reused a lot because gamers of that era tend to value them… but a device like that could have tons of useful applications to extend its life. A fold-up computer with built in wifi that runs on battery? Nice. With enough around you could run a low-power mesh network in an emergency to keep communication open between folks that are separated. But such repurposing is far outside of most people’s reach. Especially when we’re trained to think of these things as products. Phones are another one. An iPhone 5 could easily be repurposed into a firewall or other application to extend its usefulness and lifetime. It’s a general purpose computer crippled into being a product though.
  - the_gorilla 2y ago
    > With enough around you could run a low-power mesh network in an emergency to keep communication open between folks that are separated. And it plays videogames. Sounds like a win-win to me.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
hansvm 2y ago
It's a software problem too. To have the same capabilities my phone did when it was new a few years ago, I have to find 3rd party play store backups to get apps with the right SDK to install. The bootloader isn't unlockable. Samsung won't provide updates. Google is actively hostile to providing apps which work (both not hosting the working versions and abusing things like their power over the signing keys to quickly deprecate old Android SDKs).
- grishka 2y ago
  > (both not hosting the working versions and abusing things like their power over the signing keys to quickly deprecate old Android SDKs) Android SDKs aren't getting deprecated. The SDK available on developer.android.com right now can still be used to build an app that runs on devices all the way down to Android 1.5. It's the developers who are dropping older Android versions by raising the minSDK in their apps. Google Play does allow the developer to keep older app versions available for older Android versions. Again, most developers don't do that. Google themselves support older Android versions for a very long time. Current versions of GSF and Google Play require Android 4.4, iirc. This came out more than 10 years ago.
- DowagerDave 2y ago
  yep - my old moto phone was fine, and I didn't add any new apps or desire new functionality, but performance got so bad over time to the point where it was unusable. There's really no attractive business model today in maintaining modest device usage over a long period of time.
burningChrome 2y ago
>> Re-using devices helps us also reduce the number of new devices needed. This isn't just the hardware makers, its also software makers. A ton of the software gets sunset on older versions of Android. Older OnePlus phones, Sony and Google phones are being repurposed for Ubuntu Touch or Sailfish OS because many apps will only work on a specific Android version and up. Same thing with the Google Play store. If you have an older phone that works fine - that's great, too bad none of the software can run on it because modern apps are bloated, you need 12GB of RAM on your phone now. Oh sure you can technically run it, but it won't rune well. I have three or four Windows phones that still run, but are completely worthless because the software can't be updated because the only browser that you could use was Explorer. Now that MS upgraded to Edge, these phones are worthless. Same thing with the Windows apps. I was able to use One Note on my Lumia 950 just as a stand alone note taker, but now it won't update because MS says it doesn't support that older version and I can't update it. I agree 100% hardware makers are one of the reasons, but there's a massive issue with the software makers who do the same thing and essentially stop supporting older versions of their software that run fine on these older devices.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  It feels like the whole software ecosystem: operating systems, 1st party app and 3rd party app developers, are all conspiring to keep us on the "buy, buy, buy" treadmill. I've got a perfectly good iPhone 7 and quite a few of the apps are no longer even on the app store, and my existing ones are starting to get "upgrades" that put up full-screen modal dialogs telling me the app no longer works on my phone. They can't even let me keep the old working app installed! Not to even mention my old O.G. iPad 1 and iPhone 4 which both work as perfectly as the day I bought them, except that none of the software works and the app store is a total ghost town. Software developers are mostly to blame for obsoleting perfectly working hardware.
  - kjellsbells 2y ago
    > Software developers are mostly to blame for obsoleting perfectly working hardware. Is it the developer, say, of some app for Android or iOS, at fault, or is it that the changing API surface coupled with App Store policies means that an app developer is forced to keep releasing new versions and deprecating older operating systems and hardware? I always had the impression that Google and Apple took a very dim view of apps that were stable and not refreshed.
bee_rider 2y ago
We need a law that requires manufacturers to, in the very least, provide the documentation and keys to install an open source OS on their devices when they drop support for the things.
nonrandomstring 2y ago
One of the nasty impacts comes from the low-tech metal recovery process that washes out heavy metals like cadmium, mercury, lead, arsenic into the sea. Fish from the West coast of Africa are basically lethal to eat. Did a podcast with a researcher named Gerry McGovern (World Wide Waste) on this a couple of years ago [0]. Something that impedes recycling and repair is status display. I was proud of the old Nokia I kept for 10 years, all stuck together with tape, despite the scowls and snickers from the crowd with their latest iPhone who supposed I must be some freakish homeless person who wandered in - instead of their project leader/CTO. That was back in the days when meetings always started with an animalistic display of getting your tech out on the table to pose with. Somehow that little Nokia really emasculated and pissed them off. These were the same people who could talk about "efficiency" all day long, but the actual reality of doing more with less undermined some more powerful, lower drive. [0] https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/andy-farnell-perils-of-e-waste-and-benefits/id1504443346 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/andy-farnell-perils-of...
- agentultra 2y ago
  Recycling is definitely one area of engineering that is under appreciated and difficult. The tech involved in recycling solar panels. Sheesh. Specialized equipment and patented processes. All to separate polymers from the metals and minerals. It’s currently more expensive than mining new material. The challenge will be to make it affordable enough that it makes sense. But general electronic waste? I can’t even imagine. It sucks that instead of answering the challenge the world is collectively shrugging and dumping it in places like Ghana. Update: Part of the recycling equation is not only designing electronics to be repaired and re-used but also designing them to be easier to recycle. In the solar panel field there are experimental designs that give new panels the same durability and life expectancy without the polymers which would reduce the cost of recycling them at end-of-life quite significantly. Computing is... going in a different direction. Optimizing density at the component level makes for more power-efficient designs and some efficiency in the supply chain... but it makes recycling and repair waaaaaaaay harder. Not sure it's worth the effort tbh.
  - nonrandomstring 2y ago
dailykoder 2y ago
Repairing my old iphone does not give me a fancy new AI camera though. My followers would be mad about that
dabber21 2y ago
hardware that you don't "own" is also a big problem, support ended? too bad. company is bankrupt? too bad.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  Fisher ocean owners are finding this out the hard way.
ClumsyPilot 2y ago
> Re-using devices helps us also reduce the number of new devices needed... You buy a device with a rechargeable battery, the device has an expected lifetime of 15 years but the battery is dead after 5. I try to open the device, but it’s clearly not designed to be opened. After prying with knives, etc I get it open and see that it’s not a standard cell, like 18650, but a custom pack. I emailed the manufacturer and they reply with ‘we don’t make it any more’ So I am on to my 3rd beard trimmer. And I buy the most expensive model available, it’s not like I am cheating out. Same issue with wireless mice, keyboards, everything
- IWeldMelons 2y ago
  Chinesium devices are far more riendly in that respect, usually use standard cells.
  - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
    Ye, I think a lot of deal Chinese in gets is unfair They optimise for different criteria. Westerners need a $thing$ to work for 5 years and never break. If it breaks, just getting a repairmen to get off his arse and come to your house is like £150. So it’s better to get an expensive $thing$ that never breaks But in China, getting a repair guy is easy, so it’s better to get a cheaper $thing$ that’s easy to repair
eleveriven 2y ago
Agree! The push for "right to repair" isn't just about individual choice
sourcepluck 2y ago
> I've been repairing and maintaining iPhone 5's, 7's, and 8's that are no where near their end of life. There's an iPhone 6 I've come into possession of because someone I know was throwing theirs away, so I asked could I have it to play with. I notice you conspicuously said 5, 7 and 8. What software do you run on them to keep them going? As far as I understand it, there's no alternative app stores or ROMs to flash on iPhones. And is there anything about the 6 I should know? Great comment anyway, I'm in full agreement - making devices last longer is essential, empowering and fun.
- agentultra 2y ago
  You can find jailbreaks for that generation of iPhone that are fairly reliable. The problem with jailbreaks is that you’re in untrusted code territory. Treat them accordingly. Project Sandcastle may have better support for 6 these days but you’d have to check. Last I checked the 7’s had the best support. Good luck and have fun!
  - sourcepluck 2y ago
    Brilliant, I had seen Project Sandcastle but it hadn't popped into my head since acquiring this little old machine. I'll absolutely look into if it can be done on the 6, cheers!
alfor 2y ago
Conterpoint: Phone are small and replace so much more stuff: radio, flashlight, camera, video recorder, landlines, computers, etc. Grind them up and recycle the metals in them. in 20 years the tech will be so far more advanced and will lead to even more dematerialisation. The real waste is the waste of human potential by social media that is destroying the yought for profit.
saturn8601 2y ago
I tend to go to my local town's e-waste collection at the end of every month in search of interesting gems to take home and repair. I find that the majority of e-waste that I see is 10+ year old tvs, 15+ year old Desktop pcs from the P4/core 2 era, and broken LCDs (as in the screen is cracked). Maybe my town is just really frugal but it seems like home users really do hold onto their devices for quite a while. One thing I do see more often is really low end stuff: generic Chromebooks, all those Chinese knockoffs of popular items (tablets, picture frames etc.). No name electronics (ie Speakers, mp3 players, other consumer electronic junk.) Anything moderately mid tier or higher is used until the 10+ year mark. I suspect that all these items never really saw much use to begin with and with the low spec nature of many of these items, even if they were fully open what could people really do with most of them? I still totally agree with your stance but I am not sure how much of the bulk it would reduce.
- agentultra 2y ago
  Too true. Elsewhere in the comments we've been discussing the third R(ecycling) when it comes to general electronics. A tough problem... one that has so far been tackled by making it someone else's problem. Usually people who don't have the logistics and technology to handle it.
MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
There are actually reasons that phones specifically can't last 20 years: We keep changing wireless standards. When it was mandated that all phones in the US must support VoLTE, I had two phones that were instantly turned into e-waste: An aging Xperia XA2 (that I miss dearly) and an ASUS ROG Phone 2 (good riddance) that was only 6 months old. Until we can come up with an energy-efficient and tamper-resistant SDR for phones, this will be the hard limiting factor for useful phone age.

echelon_musk 2y ago

> Re-using devices helps us also reduce the number of new devices needed... which is what probably scares the corporate oligarchy I agree with you. Reusing and repairing appliances flies in the face of current capitalism. We don't need new models of phones, laptops or cars every year. Sadly I'm not optimistic that we will be able to dial back greed any time soon.

amelius 2y ago
We need to reinvent capitalism. (Why does my phone need to be upgraded every year, while capitalism is kept at version 0.1beta?)
- knowitnone 2y ago
  YOU CHOSE to upgrade your phone every year. I don't see a gun to your head.
  - mindslight 2y ago
    Even if they had a gun to their head, would doing so not still be a "choice" by your apparent definition?
- the_gorilla 2y ago
  Every single thread has someone complaining about capitalism. It's childish, and more importantly, not interesting. We get it, capitalism bad, but communists produce even more e-waste.
  - immibis 2y ago
    Capitalism is the system we are in which is the system that creates the actual problems of this system. We are talking about the actual problems in real life and not the theoretical problems that may exist in a parallel universe.
    - the_gorilla 2y ago
      No, it's just vague whining about the idea of capitalism itself. Updating capitalism is not talking about any specific problems.
- roenxi 2y ago
  > while capitalism is kept at version 0.1beta?) The process of developing capitalism has taken millennia and in the last few centuries has had far more intellectual horsepower put into it than developing phones. Lots of iterations have been tried, it can't be compared to a beta product at all. The major problem we have on that front is people keep trying to regress backwards to models of organisation that have already been tried and are well understood not to work effectively - because almost nobody votes based on historical learnings. Once we have >100 years experience in building phones there probably won't be annual upgrades any more either, it'll be like-for-like replacements.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    What do you count as iterations? There's never been a violent throwing out of capitalism to be tried with a different version of capitalism. The throwing out of capitalism has been to replace it with something else, not more capitalism. And has the horsepower been put into developing capitalism, or has it been put into making more money for the people wielding it, rather than developing the best system there could be?
    - immibis 2y ago
      Capitalism concentrates power to the top; those powerful people are the ones who have had the power to reinvent it so far. E.g. in 2008 when the Fed began QE Infinity, which never ended.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - AlexandrB 2y ago
      Why does it have to be violent? Every election heralds a slightly different version of capitalism based on the regulatory and tax priorities of who is now in charge. Edit: Think of it in software terms. Version 1.1 or even 2.0 is normally not a complete rewrite of version 1.0, instead it's an iterative set of changes. Rewrites are often considered to be a bad idea.
- immibis 2y ago
  Capitalism has actually been reinvented many times - basically every time there's a significant change in how the Federal Reserve operates, this is a reinvention of capitalism. It occurred memorably in 2008 and recently in 2024. This new 2024 version hasn't had time to reach a stable state yet. It was preceded by cryptocurrency bubble capitalism since 2020.
- joncrocks 2y ago
  Did someone invent capitalism? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#Definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#Definition It's a loose concept, a bag of things including basic human behaviour/self interest, mutually beneficial transactions between willing participants and the rules provided by governments.

yndoendo 2y ago

Refurbish and repairing viable electronics does not help keep Apple's, Google's or any manufacturer's stock high. Stock spikes high when the news organizations can talk about all the latest hardware and how sales doing well. Why would those companies CEOs want to hurt their golden package before exiting the industry? One way to start penetrating right-to-repair would be to force device unlocking after ownership, device payed off, and end-of-life classification by the manufacture. Next step would be for the manufacturers to require publishing open documents for 3rd party support without having to sign a NDA. Both of those require reverse engineering. With camera technology being so complex, this is the feature that limits alternative OS usage with continual security updates after the manufactures give up. Maybe rephrasing right-to-repair as "consumer protection" could help push it through better with less tech savvy consumers.

ToucanLoucan 2y ago
Consumers aren't the issue. Consumer support for right to repair is broad. The issue is the government doesn't give a shit what consumers think the vast majority of the time, they're bought and paid for by corporate lobbyists.
- nickff 2y ago
  Consumer support for right to repair is broad, so long as it comes at no cost to them. People don’t want to pay to fix things, and they don’t want to accept any reduction in performance either.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - t0bia_s 2y ago
    Why would you pay same price for repairing a shoes when you can get a new one for similar price?
    - paulryanrogers 2y ago

amelius 2y ago

This is also why general purpose computers should not be crippled by the manufacturer. Or at least there should be a way to uncripple them.

agentultra 2y ago
So many devices are general purpose computers that are treated like a specialized device. eg: modern games consoles. A Nintendo 3DS is an ARM11 board. You can run Linux on it. Most people don’t because it doesn’t look like a “computer.” And because they wouldn’t know how as it takes a very specific skill set to make it work. They do get reused a lot because gamers of that era tend to value them… but a device like that could have tons of useful applications to extend its life. A fold-up computer with built in wifi that runs on battery? Nice. With enough around you could run a low-power mesh network in an emergency to keep communication open between folks that are separated. But such repurposing is far outside of most people’s reach. Especially when we’re trained to think of these things as products. Phones are another one. An iPhone 5 could easily be repurposed into a firewall or other application to extend its usefulness and lifetime. It’s a general purpose computer crippled into being a product though.
- the_gorilla 2y ago
  > With enough around you could run a low-power mesh network in an emergency to keep communication open between folks that are separated. And it plays videogames. Sounds like a win-win to me.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

hansvm 2y ago

It's a software problem too. To have the same capabilities my phone did when it was new a few years ago, I have to find 3rd party play store backups to get apps with the right SDK to install. The bootloader isn't unlockable. Samsung won't provide updates. Google is actively hostile to providing apps which work (both not hosting the working versions and abusing things like their power over the signing keys to quickly deprecate old Android SDKs).

grishka 2y ago
> (both not hosting the working versions and abusing things like their power over the signing keys to quickly deprecate old Android SDKs) Android SDKs aren't getting deprecated. The SDK available on developer.android.com right now can still be used to build an app that runs on devices all the way down to Android 1.5. It's the developers who are dropping older Android versions by raising the minSDK in their apps. Google Play does allow the developer to keep older app versions available for older Android versions. Again, most developers don't do that. Google themselves support older Android versions for a very long time. Current versions of GSF and Google Play require Android 4.4, iirc. This came out more than 10 years ago.
DowagerDave 2y ago
yep - my old moto phone was fine, and I didn't add any new apps or desire new functionality, but performance got so bad over time to the point where it was unusable. There's really no attractive business model today in maintaining modest device usage over a long period of time.

burningChrome 2y ago

>> Re-using devices helps us also reduce the number of new devices needed. This isn't just the hardware makers, its also software makers. A ton of the software gets sunset on older versions of Android. Older OnePlus phones, Sony and Google phones are being repurposed for Ubuntu Touch or Sailfish OS because many apps will only work on a specific Android version and up. Same thing with the Google Play store. If you have an older phone that works fine - that's great, too bad none of the software can run on it because modern apps are bloated, you need 12GB of RAM on your phone now. Oh sure you can technically run it, but it won't rune well. I have three or four Windows phones that still run, but are completely worthless because the software can't be updated because the only browser that you could use was Explorer. Now that MS upgraded to Edge, these phones are worthless. Same thing with the Windows apps. I was able to use One Note on my Lumia 950 just as a stand alone note taker, but now it won't update because MS says it doesn't support that older version and I can't update it. I agree 100% hardware makers are one of the reasons, but there's a massive issue with the software makers who do the same thing and essentially stop supporting older versions of their software that run fine on these older devices.

ryandrake 2y ago
It feels like the whole software ecosystem: operating systems, 1st party app and 3rd party app developers, are all conspiring to keep us on the "buy, buy, buy" treadmill. I've got a perfectly good iPhone 7 and quite a few of the apps are no longer even on the app store, and my existing ones are starting to get "upgrades" that put up full-screen modal dialogs telling me the app no longer works on my phone. They can't even let me keep the old working app installed! Not to even mention my old O.G. iPad 1 and iPhone 4 which both work as perfectly as the day I bought them, except that none of the software works and the app store is a total ghost town. Software developers are mostly to blame for obsoleting perfectly working hardware.
- kjellsbells 2y ago
  > Software developers are mostly to blame for obsoleting perfectly working hardware. Is it the developer, say, of some app for Android or iOS, at fault, or is it that the changing API surface coupled with App Store policies means that an app developer is forced to keep releasing new versions and deprecating older operating systems and hardware? I always had the impression that Google and Apple took a very dim view of apps that were stable and not refreshed.

bee_rider 2y ago

We need a law that requires manufacturers to, in the very least, provide the documentation and keys to install an open source OS on their devices when they drop support for the things.

nonrandomstring 2y ago

One of the nasty impacts comes from the low-tech metal recovery process that washes out heavy metals like cadmium, mercury, lead, arsenic into the sea. Fish from the West coast of Africa are basically lethal to eat. Did a podcast with a researcher named Gerry McGovern (World Wide Waste) on this a couple of years ago [0]. Something that impedes recycling and repair is status display. I was proud of the old Nokia I kept for 10 years, all stuck together with tape, despite the scowls and snickers from the crowd with their latest iPhone who supposed I must be some freakish homeless person who wandered in - instead of their project leader/CTO. That was back in the days when meetings always started with an animalistic display of getting your tech out on the table to pose with. Somehow that little Nokia really emasculated and pissed them off. These were the same people who could talk about "efficiency" all day long, but the actual reality of doing more with less undermined some more powerful, lower drive. [0] https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/andy-farnell-perils-of-e-waste-and-benefits/id1504443346 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/andy-farnell-perils-of...

agentultra 2y ago
Recycling is definitely one area of engineering that is under appreciated and difficult. The tech involved in recycling solar panels. Sheesh. Specialized equipment and patented processes. All to separate polymers from the metals and minerals. It’s currently more expensive than mining new material. The challenge will be to make it affordable enough that it makes sense. But general electronic waste? I can’t even imagine. It sucks that instead of answering the challenge the world is collectively shrugging and dumping it in places like Ghana. Update: Part of the recycling equation is not only designing electronics to be repaired and re-used but also designing them to be easier to recycle. In the solar panel field there are experimental designs that give new panels the same durability and life expectancy without the polymers which would reduce the cost of recycling them at end-of-life quite significantly. Computing is... going in a different direction. Optimizing density at the component level makes for more power-efficient designs and some efficiency in the supply chain... but it makes recycling and repair waaaaaaaay harder. Not sure it's worth the effort tbh.
- nonrandomstring 2y ago

dailykoder 2y ago

Repairing my old iphone does not give me a fancy new AI camera though. My followers would be mad about that

dabber21 2y ago

hardware that you don't "own" is also a big problem, support ended? too bad. company is bankrupt? too bad.

throwaway48476 2y ago
Fisher ocean owners are finding this out the hard way.

ClumsyPilot 2y ago

> Re-using devices helps us also reduce the number of new devices needed... You buy a device with a rechargeable battery, the device has an expected lifetime of 15 years but the battery is dead after 5. I try to open the device, but it’s clearly not designed to be opened. After prying with knives, etc I get it open and see that it’s not a standard cell, like 18650, but a custom pack. I emailed the manufacturer and they reply with ‘we don’t make it any more’ So I am on to my 3rd beard trimmer. And I buy the most expensive model available, it’s not like I am cheating out. Same issue with wireless mice, keyboards, everything

IWeldMelons 2y ago
Chinesium devices are far more riendly in that respect, usually use standard cells.
- ClumsyPilot 2y ago
  Ye, I think a lot of deal Chinese in gets is unfair They optimise for different criteria. Westerners need a $thing$ to work for 5 years and never break. If it breaks, just getting a repairmen to get off his arse and come to your house is like £150. So it’s better to get an expensive $thing$ that never breaks But in China, getting a repair guy is easy, so it’s better to get a cheaper $thing$ that’s easy to repair

eleveriven 2y ago

Agree! The push for "right to repair" isn't just about individual choice

sourcepluck 2y ago

> I've been repairing and maintaining iPhone 5's, 7's, and 8's that are no where near their end of life. There's an iPhone 6 I've come into possession of because someone I know was throwing theirs away, so I asked could I have it to play with. I notice you conspicuously said 5, 7 and 8. What software do you run on them to keep them going? As far as I understand it, there's no alternative app stores or ROMs to flash on iPhones. And is there anything about the 6 I should know? Great comment anyway, I'm in full agreement - making devices last longer is essential, empowering and fun.

agentultra 2y ago
You can find jailbreaks for that generation of iPhone that are fairly reliable. The problem with jailbreaks is that you’re in untrusted code territory. Treat them accordingly. Project Sandcastle may have better support for 6 these days but you’d have to check. Last I checked the 7’s had the best support. Good luck and have fun!
- sourcepluck 2y ago
  Brilliant, I had seen Project Sandcastle but it hadn't popped into my head since acquiring this little old machine. I'll absolutely look into if it can be done on the 6, cheers!

alfor 2y ago

Conterpoint: Phone are small and replace so much more stuff: radio, flashlight, camera, video recorder, landlines, computers, etc. Grind them up and recycle the metals in them. in 20 years the tech will be so far more advanced and will lead to even more dematerialisation. The real waste is the waste of human potential by social media that is destroying the yought for profit.

saturn8601 2y ago

I tend to go to my local town's e-waste collection at the end of every month in search of interesting gems to take home and repair. I find that the majority of e-waste that I see is 10+ year old tvs, 15+ year old Desktop pcs from the P4/core 2 era, and broken LCDs (as in the screen is cracked). Maybe my town is just really frugal but it seems like home users really do hold onto their devices for quite a while. One thing I do see more often is really low end stuff: generic Chromebooks, all those Chinese knockoffs of popular items (tablets, picture frames etc.). No name electronics (ie Speakers, mp3 players, other consumer electronic junk.) Anything moderately mid tier or higher is used until the 10+ year mark. I suspect that all these items never really saw much use to begin with and with the low spec nature of many of these items, even if they were fully open what could people really do with most of them? I still totally agree with your stance but I am not sure how much of the bulk it would reduce.

agentultra 2y ago
Too true. Elsewhere in the comments we've been discussing the third R(ecycling) when it comes to general electronics. A tough problem... one that has so far been tackled by making it someone else's problem. Usually people who don't have the logistics and technology to handle it.

MrDrMcCoy 2y ago

There are actually reasons that phones specifically can't last 20 years: We keep changing wireless standards. When it was mandated that all phones in the US must support VoLTE, I had two phones that were instantly turned into e-waste: An aging Xperia XA2 (that I miss dearly) and an ASUS ROG Phone 2 (good riddance) that was only 6 months old. Until we can come up with an energy-efficient and tamper-resistant SDR for phones, this will be the hard limiting factor for useful phone age.