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The most impactful outcome of this would be the removal of another evolutionary pressure point. If fetuses don't have to be carried they can be grown to be lar

The most impactful outcome of this would be the removal of another evolutionary pressure point. If fetuses don't have to be carried they can be grown to be larger. This means they can be left on life support to mature more before "birth", which would reduce postnatal risks. But perhaps more importantly, a newborn brain could be almost arbitrarily large. Come to think of it, childhood could be skipped altogether: simply leave the child dreaming in a vat and train their brain to know everything immediately after birth.

ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
What's the end goal of this? Why would we do this? Reducing postnatal risks sounds great but not sure about the stuff after.
- throw49sjwo1 2y ago
  Some people (me included) think that a huge population is desirable. This would allow humanity to create entire new societies.
- pvaldes 2y ago
  Is the unique realistic way to conquer space.
CalRobert 2y ago
Perhaps you could skip the birth and spend an entire life happily suspended in the vat imagining a wondrous life unconstrained by physical limits. Perhaps you are.
- baxtr 2y ago
  And while you do someone is using your body as power plant?!
  - ct0 2y ago
    great idea for a movie tbh, maybe a series
    - baxtr 2y ago
      Nice idea! "The Grid" sounds like an appropriate name
      - CalRobert 2y ago
        Incidentally Middle English referred to the womb as the matrix iirc
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    Perhaps, but the idea makes absolutely no sense at all, which is why it would only work in a Hollywood movie. In reality, if the world had little sunlight, the easiest way to make power on a large scale would be with nuclear reactors.
    - RodgerTheGreat 2y ago
      I read an anecdote once that the original idea was the AIs using humans as compute nodes. When a human was doing active computational work for the machines, they'd go to sleep within the Matrix. In the real world, sleep doesn't exist. Apparently studio execs thought this would be too confusing for audiences, so it was reworked into the thermodynamics-violating version in the final film. (Perhaps, though, physics aren't quite the same outside the Matrix?)
      - shiroiushi 2y ago
        >When a human was doing active computational work for the machines, they'd go to sleep within the Matrix. In the real world, sleep doesn't exist. That's an interesting idea, but it would also mean that all we know about human history is either made-up, or happened within the Matrix, because a world of humans that never sleep would look very different. It would also mean everything we know about other mammals is wrong too, since they all sleep too. Still, this seems more interesting than the idea that humanity peaked in 1999 and then sometime after that the machines took over and built the matrix and humans are somehow energy producers. But looking back, the idea that humanity peaked around 1999 doesn't seem too far-fetched...
PlunderBunny 2y ago
Over the very long term, using this method of bringing babies to term might result in babies with larger heads, and therefore larger brains (because the baby wouldn't have to pass through the birth canal).
klipt 2y ago
Egg laying animals already grow their babies externally, yet mammals dominate. Why?
- ajb 2y ago
  It would be interesting to know the stats, but one reason may be that it's easier to carry a baby with you when running from a predator.
- pvaldes 2y ago
  Egg layers definitely dominate biodiversity. "99%" of the extant species of animals are in this group. Being viviparous is an anomaly.
- syncsynchalt 2y ago
  There are between 1 and 2 million species of beetle. Who says mammals dominate?
- cyberax 2y ago
  Non-avian reptiles have poor metabolism, they can't compete with mammals on endurance. And you need that if you want to be a large herbivore, otherwise mammals will just hunt you to extinction. A reptile also can't be an endurance hunter because mammals will just outrun it. So non-avian reptiles are forced into the niche of ambush predators (snakes, crocodiles), or they have to stay small and rely on stealth (lizards).
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    >mammals will just hunt you to extinction. A reptile also can't be an endurance hunter because mammals will just outrun it. The Gorn would like a word with you.
  - adrian_b 2y ago
    It is not certain that the slow metabolism of reptiles is primitive and that birds and mammals have developed homeothermy independently. Because there are certain similarities between the homeothermy of birds and that of mammals that seem less likely to be coincidences, there exists an alternative hypothesis, that homeothermy and fast metabolism has already evolved in the ancestor of all amniotes. Later, in the ancestors of crocodyles, of turtles and in that of lizards and snakes (both etymologically and cladistically, it would be better to apply the term "reptiles" only to lizards and snakes), poikilothermy and slow metabolism have evolved as an adaptation that allows the reptiles to live using much less food than needed by birds and mammals. This reversal appears especially likely for crocodiles, whose ancestors were terrestrial and agile. Such a reversal is also consistent with the fact that reptiles need a high body temperature for a normal activity, unlike the amphibians, for which there is no doubt that they did not have an ancestor with homeothermy. To reach their required body temperature, reptiles need to use external sources, e.g. basking in sun light. Because of their dependence on external sources of heat, reptiles become rare or completely absent in colder climates, where amphibians are still abundant.
mannykannot 2y ago
Is there reason to believe that the human genome would produce almost arbitrarily large brains, solely as a consequence of removing the space and time constraints imposed by in utero development? An extra arm might come in handy, but I don't suppose that would just happen.
- Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 2y ago
  > handy ISWYDT, nice one
- riehwvfbk 2y ago
  Maybe not yet. But if someone were to plant in popular culture the idea that a large head circumference is desirable, and then dating apps would introduce a corresponding filter...
jlhawn 2y ago
The main idea behind the popular book _The Happiest Baby on the Block_ is that true cause of colic (inconsolable crying by newborns) is "The Missing Fourth Trimester". During the first 3-4 months after full term, the best methods for soothing an infant are recreating the conditions it experienced in the uterus. Humans evolved to "evict" their babies earlier due to the species' growing head sizes necessary for larger brains. After the infant's first 100 days, they are better able to self-sooth and can explore their environment (with help and supervision) to best continue brain development.
- acyou 2y ago
  I think I read that colic has to do with formula feeding? Apparently this sort of crying is not present in breastfed babies, it has to do with discomfort due to excessive gas generated when digesting the infant formula. Babies certainly did not evolve to waste valuable time and resources on crying nonstop for no good reason, they likely do so only because something is not quite right. A more optimistic take is that they do it to develop the pipes, and the nonstop crying will pay off later with a great voice.
  - thecyborganizer 2y ago
    Total nonsense, there are no studies that link colic to formula feeding. Some newborns have digestive problems with formula; some newborns have digestive problems with breast milk. Formula digestive problems can sometimes be helped by switching to a different formulation, while breast milk digestive problems can sometimes be helped by changing the diet of the breastfeeding parent. And there are sources of colic that have nothing to do with digestion - a quick perusal of WebMD lists noise/light sensitivity, nervous system misfires, and baby migraines (poor babies)! Colic certainly might be an indicator that something is not quite right, but that doesn't mean there's always something you can do about it. As I write this with my exhausted newborn son sleeping in my arms, sometimes you just have to wait for them to grow out of it. EDIT: I looked into this a little more since I'm pinned by a sleepy baby and as with everything with babies it's complicated. Here's a study that shows that formula-fed babies cry more at 2 weeks than breast-fed babies, but less at 6 weeks: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10193923/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10193923/ This is probably also hindered by the fact that "colic" is an imprecise term - all babies cry, but at a certain point if they cry enough you call it "colic".
makeitdouble 2y ago
It would be truely impactful, but I don't think in a positive way. It's equivalent to moving to eggs, and getting morally immature individuals immediately get a full grown body. I might be mistaken, but it feels like reversing the whole evolutionary process that brought humans, when as a species we're currently pretty well adjusted to our earth environment. I don't think "nature" or evolution should be seen in a positive way just for the sake of it, but our whole history has consistently extended the childhood period, and we're still pointing at young adults as immature. It's of course a different story if you're planning on dominating earth with an army of clones, or dominating space with a fleet of soldiers.

ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago

What's the end goal of this? Why would we do this? Reducing postnatal risks sounds great but not sure about the stuff after.

throw49sjwo1 2y ago
Some people (me included) think that a huge population is desirable. This would allow humanity to create entire new societies.
pvaldes 2y ago
Is the unique realistic way to conquer space.

CalRobert 2y ago

Perhaps you could skip the birth and spend an entire life happily suspended in the vat imagining a wondrous life unconstrained by physical limits. Perhaps you are.

baxtr 2y ago
And while you do someone is using your body as power plant?!
- ct0 2y ago
  great idea for a movie tbh, maybe a series
  - baxtr 2y ago
    Nice idea! "The Grid" sounds like an appropriate name
    - CalRobert 2y ago
      Incidentally Middle English referred to the womb as the matrix iirc
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  Perhaps, but the idea makes absolutely no sense at all, which is why it would only work in a Hollywood movie. In reality, if the world had little sunlight, the easiest way to make power on a large scale would be with nuclear reactors.
  - RodgerTheGreat 2y ago
    I read an anecdote once that the original idea was the AIs using humans as compute nodes. When a human was doing active computational work for the machines, they'd go to sleep within the Matrix. In the real world, sleep doesn't exist. Apparently studio execs thought this would be too confusing for audiences, so it was reworked into the thermodynamics-violating version in the final film. (Perhaps, though, physics aren't quite the same outside the Matrix?)
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      >When a human was doing active computational work for the machines, they'd go to sleep within the Matrix. In the real world, sleep doesn't exist. That's an interesting idea, but it would also mean that all we know about human history is either made-up, or happened within the Matrix, because a world of humans that never sleep would look very different. It would also mean everything we know about other mammals is wrong too, since they all sleep too. Still, this seems more interesting than the idea that humanity peaked in 1999 and then sometime after that the machines took over and built the matrix and humans are somehow energy producers. But looking back, the idea that humanity peaked around 1999 doesn't seem too far-fetched...

PlunderBunny 2y ago

Over the very long term, using this method of bringing babies to term might result in babies with larger heads, and therefore larger brains (because the baby wouldn't have to pass through the birth canal).

klipt 2y ago

Egg laying animals already grow their babies externally, yet mammals dominate. Why?

ajb 2y ago
It would be interesting to know the stats, but one reason may be that it's easier to carry a baby with you when running from a predator.
pvaldes 2y ago
Egg layers definitely dominate biodiversity. "99%" of the extant species of animals are in this group. Being viviparous is an anomaly.
syncsynchalt 2y ago
There are between 1 and 2 million species of beetle. Who says mammals dominate?
cyberax 2y ago
Non-avian reptiles have poor metabolism, they can't compete with mammals on endurance. And you need that if you want to be a large herbivore, otherwise mammals will just hunt you to extinction. A reptile also can't be an endurance hunter because mammals will just outrun it. So non-avian reptiles are forced into the niche of ambush predators (snakes, crocodiles), or they have to stay small and rely on stealth (lizards).
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  >mammals will just hunt you to extinction. A reptile also can't be an endurance hunter because mammals will just outrun it. The Gorn would like a word with you.
- adrian_b 2y ago
  It is not certain that the slow metabolism of reptiles is primitive and that birds and mammals have developed homeothermy independently. Because there are certain similarities between the homeothermy of birds and that of mammals that seem less likely to be coincidences, there exists an alternative hypothesis, that homeothermy and fast metabolism has already evolved in the ancestor of all amniotes. Later, in the ancestors of crocodyles, of turtles and in that of lizards and snakes (both etymologically and cladistically, it would be better to apply the term "reptiles" only to lizards and snakes), poikilothermy and slow metabolism have evolved as an adaptation that allows the reptiles to live using much less food than needed by birds and mammals. This reversal appears especially likely for crocodiles, whose ancestors were terrestrial and agile. Such a reversal is also consistent with the fact that reptiles need a high body temperature for a normal activity, unlike the amphibians, for which there is no doubt that they did not have an ancestor with homeothermy. To reach their required body temperature, reptiles need to use external sources, e.g. basking in sun light. Because of their dependence on external sources of heat, reptiles become rare or completely absent in colder climates, where amphibians are still abundant.

mannykannot 2y ago

Is there reason to believe that the human genome would produce almost arbitrarily large brains, solely as a consequence of removing the space and time constraints imposed by in utero development? An extra arm might come in handy, but I don't suppose that would just happen.

Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 2y ago
> handy ISWYDT, nice one
riehwvfbk 2y ago
Maybe not yet. But if someone were to plant in popular culture the idea that a large head circumference is desirable, and then dating apps would introduce a corresponding filter...

jlhawn 2y ago

The main idea behind the popular book _The Happiest Baby on the Block_ is that true cause of colic (inconsolable crying by newborns) is "The Missing Fourth Trimester". During the first 3-4 months after full term, the best methods for soothing an infant are recreating the conditions it experienced in the uterus. Humans evolved to "evict" their babies earlier due to the species' growing head sizes necessary for larger brains. After the infant's first 100 days, they are better able to self-sooth and can explore their environment (with help and supervision) to best continue brain development.

acyou 2y ago
I think I read that colic has to do with formula feeding? Apparently this sort of crying is not present in breastfed babies, it has to do with discomfort due to excessive gas generated when digesting the infant formula. Babies certainly did not evolve to waste valuable time and resources on crying nonstop for no good reason, they likely do so only because something is not quite right. A more optimistic take is that they do it to develop the pipes, and the nonstop crying will pay off later with a great voice.
- thecyborganizer 2y ago
  Total nonsense, there are no studies that link colic to formula feeding. Some newborns have digestive problems with formula; some newborns have digestive problems with breast milk. Formula digestive problems can sometimes be helped by switching to a different formulation, while breast milk digestive problems can sometimes be helped by changing the diet of the breastfeeding parent. And there are sources of colic that have nothing to do with digestion - a quick perusal of WebMD lists noise/light sensitivity, nervous system misfires, and baby migraines (poor babies)! Colic certainly might be an indicator that something is not quite right, but that doesn't mean there's always something you can do about it. As I write this with my exhausted newborn son sleeping in my arms, sometimes you just have to wait for them to grow out of it. EDIT: I looked into this a little more since I'm pinned by a sleepy baby and as with everything with babies it's complicated. Here's a study that shows that formula-fed babies cry more at 2 weeks than breast-fed babies, but less at 6 weeks: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10193923/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10193923/ This is probably also hindered by the fact that "colic" is an imprecise term - all babies cry, but at a certain point if they cry enough you call it "colic".

makeitdouble 2y ago

It would be truely impactful, but I don't think in a positive way. It's equivalent to moving to eggs, and getting morally immature individuals immediately get a full grown body. I might be mistaken, but it feels like reversing the whole evolutionary process that brought humans, when as a species we're currently pretty well adjusted to our earth environment. I don't think "nature" or evolution should be seen in a positive way just for the sake of it, but our whole history has consistently extended the childhood period, and we're still pointing at young adults as immature. It's of course a different story if you're planning on dominating earth with an army of clones, or dominating space with a fleet of soldiers.