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NIH as far as the eye can see: Germany already has a grassroots, volunteer-run network of free WiFi hotspots called Freifunk [1], which has pretty decent cover

NIH as far as the eye can see: Germany already has a grassroots, volunteer-run network of free WiFi hotspots called Freifunk [1], which has pretty decent coverage in a lot of the larger cities. I'm sure similar initiatives exist in other EU countries. Does Wifi4EU leverage this in any way? Nope, there is no way for volunteer-run networks to get included in the app [2]. Instead, it looks like municipalities have to apply for Wifi4EU funding (which they currently can't because "The next call has not been announced."), set up brand new hotspots themselves, and only then are eligible for inclusion in the app's database. [3] [1]: https://freifunk.net/ https://freifunk.net/ [2]: https://forum.freifunk.net/t/wifi4eu-vs-freifunk/21686 https://forum.freifunk.net/t/wifi4eu-vs-freifunk/21686 [3]: https://wifi4eu.ec.europa.eu/ https://wifi4eu.ec.europa.eu/

szundi 2y ago
Some russian and chinese volunteers, just what we need
- sulandor 2y ago
  imho "free wifi" is not to be trusted in any case
  - deepsun 2y ago
    Yet users will use whatever is available. E.g. people routinely send SMS with sensitive data, even though SMS is probably the least trustworthy channel. They can only help that by securing the equipment and networks. Telling public "don't trust these because foreign hackers" is not going to do much.
    - hedora 2y ago
      If you pay for icloud, there’s a button in iOS that tunnels everything over a tor-wannabe vpn. There’s no real reason to trust wifi access points at this point, or demand they be trustworthy.
      - dzhiurgis 2y ago
        iCloud tunnel is so slow it’s unusable. And ISP can turn it off at will without your knowledge.
        moi2388 2y ago
        What are you talking about? It’s not slow at all.
      - deepsun 2y ago
        Correlating sizes of data sent/received and precision timestamps is already huge intelligence. And the more entry/exit points you can tap on -- the better it becomes.
znpy 2y ago
I think the EU initiative is better. Volunteer-run infrastructure is fine, but you cannot rely on it. Can you really blame a volunteer if things break? No. They will hopefully fix it on they own time and dime, and that's good. Volunteer-managed infrastructure is a courtesy. The fact that it's been reliable so far is no indicator of future reliability. EU-driven initiative on the other hand supplies funds (15'000 euros, for proper hardware, maintenance and replacement parts) and uniformity: users in spain will have to go through the same procedures and configurations whether they are in italy, spain, germany, france or any other eu member state (does freifunk does the same?)
- IshKebab 2y ago
  Can you blame anyone if "official" free WiFi breaks? I doubt it.
  - dagmx 2y ago
    Yes? You can blame the government that is funding it with taxes. Thats a much clearer chain of blame and expectation of service.
    - matt-p 2y ago
      I think they're only paying for install costs and not ongoing fees.
- morningsam 2y ago
  I don't think it would've been very difficult to include volunteer networks in the database and allow users the option to fall back on them if an EU-funded network is not available (including a warning about potential eavesdropping on unencrypted communications).
- ExoticPearTree 2y ago
  There have been projects like this in the past. At least in some parts of Europe, they worked just for the minimum mandated period at the minimum mandated speeds. And the equipment bought was marked up heavily. And looking at the prices for enterprise grade WiFi these days... 15K EUR goes very little.
cookiengineer 2y ago
I once lived in the area where one of the Freifunk core contributors lives (Mannheim / Heidelberg / Karlsruhe / Rhein-Neckar Region). For years we also talked to the municipalities and the mayors of towns around the area, especially the smaller ones that had troubles getting their internet connections and bandwidths beyond 768kBit/s because they were ignored by ISPs and are kind of the best case for mesh networks. But, as the saying goes, with the incompetent conservatives (CDU) there's no limit on how they waste tax money. If there is a friend of them doing something for more expensive, it's getting bought; because cheaper means always worse, right? Right? For example, in a small town with around 20k citizens, they spend more than 50k EUR per year for two Wi-Fi spots near the local library, and those are "maintained" by an energy company. They also had to buy those access points for an initial sum of 20k EUR per access point, because they were very special and integrated in the street lights (not kidding you). Network speeds are less than 10Mbit/s. For that amount of money per year, you could've easily gotten a fibre connection to the library building (which also has less than 10Mbit/s internet connection, so they are kinda fucked once more than 5 people use the internet there). The moral of the story is somewhat that it's so ridiculous how incompetent politicians are when it comes to tech. I'm kind of glad that this is an EU-driven project that's delegated top-down, because that means those incompetent politicians have no excuse to buy overly expensive tech stuff from their golf buddies anymore.
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  > The moral of the story is somewhat that it's so ridiculous how incompetent politicians are when it comes to tech. "Incompetent"... Everything within Europe and especially within EU runs on corruption. You're either a parasite or a host if you live in Europe. Reap that juicy corruption money by befriending people with influence or pay the salaries and luxurious lifestyles of the people who do with your taxes.
  - wkat4242 2y ago
    The EU just throws too much money around without checking. I've seen whole parks being built with a huge sign saying funded by the EU but they never opened or even built an entrance to it. Because that would mean maintenance and the subsidy had already been cashed. I don't think it's corruption per se on the part of the EU (it is on the builders' part of course). But rather a lack of interest in how the money is spent.

szundi 2y ago

Some russian and chinese volunteers, just what we need

sulandor 2y ago
imho "free wifi" is not to be trusted in any case
- deepsun 2y ago
  Yet users will use whatever is available. E.g. people routinely send SMS with sensitive data, even though SMS is probably the least trustworthy channel. They can only help that by securing the equipment and networks. Telling public "don't trust these because foreign hackers" is not going to do much.
  - hedora 2y ago
    If you pay for icloud, there’s a button in iOS that tunnels everything over a tor-wannabe vpn. There’s no real reason to trust wifi access points at this point, or demand they be trustworthy.
    - dzhiurgis 2y ago
      iCloud tunnel is so slow it’s unusable. And ISP can turn it off at will without your knowledge.
      - moi2388 2y ago
        What are you talking about? It’s not slow at all.
    - deepsun 2y ago
      Correlating sizes of data sent/received and precision timestamps is already huge intelligence. And the more entry/exit points you can tap on -- the better it becomes.

znpy 2y ago

I think the EU initiative is better. Volunteer-run infrastructure is fine, but you cannot rely on it. Can you really blame a volunteer if things break? No. They will hopefully fix it on they own time and dime, and that's good. Volunteer-managed infrastructure is a courtesy. The fact that it's been reliable so far is no indicator of future reliability. EU-driven initiative on the other hand supplies funds (15'000 euros, for proper hardware, maintenance and replacement parts) and uniformity: users in spain will have to go through the same procedures and configurations whether they are in italy, spain, germany, france or any other eu member state (does freifunk does the same?)

IshKebab 2y ago
Can you blame anyone if "official" free WiFi breaks? I doubt it.
- dagmx 2y ago
  Yes? You can blame the government that is funding it with taxes. Thats a much clearer chain of blame and expectation of service.
  - matt-p 2y ago
    I think they're only paying for install costs and not ongoing fees.
morningsam 2y ago
I don't think it would've been very difficult to include volunteer networks in the database and allow users the option to fall back on them if an EU-funded network is not available (including a warning about potential eavesdropping on unencrypted communications).
ExoticPearTree 2y ago
There have been projects like this in the past. At least in some parts of Europe, they worked just for the minimum mandated period at the minimum mandated speeds. And the equipment bought was marked up heavily. And looking at the prices for enterprise grade WiFi these days... 15K EUR goes very little.

cookiengineer 2y ago

I once lived in the area where one of the Freifunk core contributors lives (Mannheim / Heidelberg / Karlsruhe / Rhein-Neckar Region). For years we also talked to the municipalities and the mayors of towns around the area, especially the smaller ones that had troubles getting their internet connections and bandwidths beyond 768kBit/s because they were ignored by ISPs and are kind of the best case for mesh networks. But, as the saying goes, with the incompetent conservatives (CDU) there's no limit on how they waste tax money. If there is a friend of them doing something for more expensive, it's getting bought; because cheaper means always worse, right? Right? For example, in a small town with around 20k citizens, they spend more than 50k EUR per year for two Wi-Fi spots near the local library, and those are "maintained" by an energy company. They also had to buy those access points for an initial sum of 20k EUR per access point, because they were very special and integrated in the street lights (not kidding you). Network speeds are less than 10Mbit/s. For that amount of money per year, you could've easily gotten a fibre connection to the library building (which also has less than 10Mbit/s internet connection, so they are kinda fucked once more than 5 people use the internet there). The moral of the story is somewhat that it's so ridiculous how incompetent politicians are when it comes to tech. I'm kind of glad that this is an EU-driven project that's delegated top-down, because that means those incompetent politicians have no excuse to buy overly expensive tech stuff from their golf buddies anymore.

carlosjobim 2y ago
> The moral of the story is somewhat that it's so ridiculous how incompetent politicians are when it comes to tech. "Incompetent"... Everything within Europe and especially within EU runs on corruption. You're either a parasite or a host if you live in Europe. Reap that juicy corruption money by befriending people with influence or pay the salaries and luxurious lifestyles of the people who do with your taxes.
- wkat4242 2y ago
  The EU just throws too much money around without checking. I've seen whole parks being built with a huge sign saying funded by the EU but they never opened or even built an entrance to it. Because that would mean maintenance and the subsidy had already been cashed. I don't think it's corruption per se on the part of the EU (it is on the builders' part of course). But rather a lack of interest in how the money is spent.