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This is like hitting back a bully in highschool: you will probably lose the fight, and even if you win you'll get good bruises. But in the long term you win, be

This is like hitting back a bully in highschool: you will probably lose the fight, and even if you win you'll get good bruises. But in the long term you win, because now everybody knows you will hit back.

EGreg 2y ago
I never understood this “common wisdom” about bullies being actually wimps who won’t touch you after you hit back once. It has never rung true to me. It paints all bullies with a broad brush and tells kids to take their chances physically engaging a larger kid acting like a psychopath. Bullies may either have psychological issues, abuse issues at home with their family, or they may be in a gang. “Standing up to a bully” in junior high or high school may get you jumped by the whole gang, maybe even stabbed. The bully may harbor a grudge and make sure to make an example of you. More broadly, this idea countries have that “this time we’ll retaliate and hit them so hard, they won’t retaliate and hit us back anymore” is what leads to endless escalation in wars. There are better ways to deal with bullies than “standing up to them” as an individual.
- pchristensen 2y ago
  It’s not just about you - if a bully starts to believe that others will fight back, and if other bullied see that they can stand up to the bully, and especially if others support those that stand up, it changes the calculus and bullying is less worth it.
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    That seems like a more defensible idea, but it is significantly different from the original idea.
- Retric 2y ago
  Pain sucks, as long as you can cause meaningful harm there’s other targets. Violence isn’t guaranteed to solve the issue, but it’s a proven strategy. Countries operate on a different scale. The people in charge are rarely the ones suffering in wars which completely changes the calculus.
  - EGreg 2y ago
    Yeah, but if you're a bully, you've probably been in multiple fights. You sometimes relish fighting. Sometimes you have a "pain wish". And if you're part of a gang, it might turn out badly for the person who fights, because they will later gang up on this person outside of school, and they don't have any honor to fight fairly 1on1: https://nypost.com/2023/12/13/news/student-hospitalized-after-attack-at-marjory-stoneman-douglas-high-school/ https://nypost.com/2023/12/13/news/student-hospitalized-afte... https://mustreadalaska.com/watch-video-clark-middle-school-student-savagely-attacked-by-student-gang-during-gym-class/ https://mustreadalaska.com/watch-video-clark-middle-school-s... https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/comments/lxxbjv/my_12yo_child_was_attacked_on_way_home_from/ https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/comments/lxxbjv/my_12... And also, you can get in trouble yourself for fighting, especially if you're a male and the bully is a female that's in a group that "picks on" you: https://utahparentcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/EleEd-IfYourAreATarget.pdf https://utahparentcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/EleE... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7646992 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7646992 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7647094 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7647094 Wouldn't it be better to just tell your parents and involve the authorities at the school or police?
    - Retric 2y ago
      > Wouldn't it be better to just tell your parents and involve the authorities at the school or police? If it worked then great, many kids find that it doesn’t work. No strategy solves all conflicts. Posturing as if you’re going to resort to violence can definitely backfire, but when backed up by a history of violence it’s far from useless.
- burnte 2y ago
  You have to hurt the bully enough to dissuade further action, not simply stand up to them. I had a couple bullies in high school, and in the rare times I was forced into a fight, I made sure they were unable to get up without help. That puts fear into them, knowing they're not able to easily win, and that you're willing to really hurt them.
- th0masfrancis 2y ago
  It is a game theory approach with a bit of social signalling thrown.
- CAP_NET_ADMIN 2y ago
  I was bullied by 3 separate bullies in my school years, every time it ended when I reached some deep rage in me and hit back. One time I've thrown the bully down the stairs, other time I've hit him with a chair and the last time it was when the bully stole my phone, started going through the photos my girlfriend sent me and commenting them inappropriately - I've smashed his face so hard, the glasses flew like 4 meters away. I was short and overweight, they've never expected the amounts of power I could generate when in rage mode. So from my limited, anegdotal experience - it works. It also shows other people that they can stand up to the bully and the bully is not some all-powerful being that has to define their present and future.
- floydnoel 2y ago
  you've never had to deal with a bully?
  - EGreg 2y ago
    I did. I played basketball in the downstairs playground at 14. I had gone to college at 14 and was also a pianist so I had the nickname “Mozart”. So I was pretty unusual to the high school guys. Also I wasn’t the best at aiming the ball at the net LOL. Anyway, there was a guy who was a big “fan” of WWE wrestling, kept calling out the catchphrases from the show and often bullying me physically. I didn’t really fight back or escalate. Once I got my knees banged up somewhere else, and he had pushed me to the floor, and they started bleeding again. My mom went over to where he had lived and talked to his dad. His dad begged my mom not to get the police involved because his son had already been in trouble multiple times. He prevailed on his son (I guess threatening him to leave me the f alone) and I hardly saw him since. Going back several years, when I had just moved to the neighborhood and I was 8, there was a 10-year old kid who kept bullying everyone. Sort of whipping people with chains or whatever, I don’t quite remember. Anyway in 6th grade I got caught trying to steal a small vial of white-out from a store (back then it was a useful commodity LOL) and they kept me in the back office while they called my parents. The guy took my picture and said he’ll tell the school. He said, “you’re surprisingly calm, this kid was bawling his eyes out”. I look and it’s a picture of the bully guy LOL. He’s totally lost it on that photo. After my mom picked me up, I stayed up that whole night worrying what they will tell me in school. Then it turned out they had never been told. I guess the commin thread of all these stories is that we all exist in a system and many people dread being punished by that system far more than they are worried about violence. The kids got into fights constantly. Fighting back against an older kid would not have likely done anything to “change their mind”, if anything it would have activated a “revenge” mindset and they’d call their “friends”.
- admissionsguy 2y ago
  > this idea countries have that “this time we’ll retaliate and hit them so hard, they won’t retaliate and hit us back anymore” is what leads to endless escalation in wars. So much historical evidence points to the contrary. A decisive defeat of the enemy brings a lasting piece. Insufficient use of force (nowadays often due to humanitarian concerns) leads to a simmering conflict that costs more lives in the long run.
  - EGreg 2y ago
    There is a third option It is called using third party arbitration and enforcement.

EGreg 2y ago

I never understood this “common wisdom” about bullies being actually wimps who won’t touch you after you hit back once. It has never rung true to me. It paints all bullies with a broad brush and tells kids to take their chances physically engaging a larger kid acting like a psychopath. Bullies may either have psychological issues, abuse issues at home with their family, or they may be in a gang. “Standing up to a bully” in junior high or high school may get you jumped by the whole gang, maybe even stabbed. The bully may harbor a grudge and make sure to make an example of you. More broadly, this idea countries have that “this time we’ll retaliate and hit them so hard, they won’t retaliate and hit us back anymore” is what leads to endless escalation in wars. There are better ways to deal with bullies than “standing up to them” as an individual.

pchristensen 2y ago
It’s not just about you - if a bully starts to believe that others will fight back, and if other bullied see that they can stand up to the bully, and especially if others support those that stand up, it changes the calculus and bullying is less worth it.
- bee_rider 2y ago
  That seems like a more defensible idea, but it is significantly different from the original idea.
Retric 2y ago
Pain sucks, as long as you can cause meaningful harm there’s other targets. Violence isn’t guaranteed to solve the issue, but it’s a proven strategy. Countries operate on a different scale. The people in charge are rarely the ones suffering in wars which completely changes the calculus.
- EGreg 2y ago
  Yeah, but if you're a bully, you've probably been in multiple fights. You sometimes relish fighting. Sometimes you have a "pain wish". And if you're part of a gang, it might turn out badly for the person who fights, because they will later gang up on this person outside of school, and they don't have any honor to fight fairly 1on1: https://nypost.com/2023/12/13/news/student-hospitalized-after-attack-at-marjory-stoneman-douglas-high-school/ https://nypost.com/2023/12/13/news/student-hospitalized-afte... https://mustreadalaska.com/watch-video-clark-middle-school-student-savagely-attacked-by-student-gang-during-gym-class/ https://mustreadalaska.com/watch-video-clark-middle-school-s... https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/comments/lxxbjv/my_12yo_child_was_attacked_on_way_home_from/ https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/comments/lxxbjv/my_12... And also, you can get in trouble yourself for fighting, especially if you're a male and the bully is a female that's in a group that "picks on" you: https://utahparentcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/EleEd-IfYourAreATarget.pdf https://utahparentcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/EleE... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7646992 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7646992 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7647094 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7647094 Wouldn't it be better to just tell your parents and involve the authorities at the school or police?
  - Retric 2y ago
    > Wouldn't it be better to just tell your parents and involve the authorities at the school or police? If it worked then great, many kids find that it doesn’t work. No strategy solves all conflicts. Posturing as if you’re going to resort to violence can definitely backfire, but when backed up by a history of violence it’s far from useless.
burnte 2y ago
You have to hurt the bully enough to dissuade further action, not simply stand up to them. I had a couple bullies in high school, and in the rare times I was forced into a fight, I made sure they were unable to get up without help. That puts fear into them, knowing they're not able to easily win, and that you're willing to really hurt them.
th0masfrancis 2y ago
It is a game theory approach with a bit of social signalling thrown.
CAP_NET_ADMIN 2y ago
I was bullied by 3 separate bullies in my school years, every time it ended when I reached some deep rage in me and hit back. One time I've thrown the bully down the stairs, other time I've hit him with a chair and the last time it was when the bully stole my phone, started going through the photos my girlfriend sent me and commenting them inappropriately - I've smashed his face so hard, the glasses flew like 4 meters away. I was short and overweight, they've never expected the amounts of power I could generate when in rage mode. So from my limited, anegdotal experience - it works. It also shows other people that they can stand up to the bully and the bully is not some all-powerful being that has to define their present and future.
floydnoel 2y ago
you've never had to deal with a bully?
- EGreg 2y ago
  I did. I played basketball in the downstairs playground at 14. I had gone to college at 14 and was also a pianist so I had the nickname “Mozart”. So I was pretty unusual to the high school guys. Also I wasn’t the best at aiming the ball at the net LOL. Anyway, there was a guy who was a big “fan” of WWE wrestling, kept calling out the catchphrases from the show and often bullying me physically. I didn’t really fight back or escalate. Once I got my knees banged up somewhere else, and he had pushed me to the floor, and they started bleeding again. My mom went over to where he had lived and talked to his dad. His dad begged my mom not to get the police involved because his son had already been in trouble multiple times. He prevailed on his son (I guess threatening him to leave me the f alone) and I hardly saw him since. Going back several years, when I had just moved to the neighborhood and I was 8, there was a 10-year old kid who kept bullying everyone. Sort of whipping people with chains or whatever, I don’t quite remember. Anyway in 6th grade I got caught trying to steal a small vial of white-out from a store (back then it was a useful commodity LOL) and they kept me in the back office while they called my parents. The guy took my picture and said he’ll tell the school. He said, “you’re surprisingly calm, this kid was bawling his eyes out”. I look and it’s a picture of the bully guy LOL. He’s totally lost it on that photo. After my mom picked me up, I stayed up that whole night worrying what they will tell me in school. Then it turned out they had never been told. I guess the commin thread of all these stories is that we all exist in a system and many people dread being punished by that system far more than they are worried about violence. The kids got into fights constantly. Fighting back against an older kid would not have likely done anything to “change their mind”, if anything it would have activated a “revenge” mindset and they’d call their “friends”.
admissionsguy 2y ago
> this idea countries have that “this time we’ll retaliate and hit them so hard, they won’t retaliate and hit us back anymore” is what leads to endless escalation in wars. So much historical evidence points to the contrary. A decisive defeat of the enemy brings a lasting piece. Insufficient use of force (nowadays often due to humanitarian concerns) leads to a simmering conflict that costs more lives in the long run.
- EGreg 2y ago
  There is a third option It is called using third party arbitration and enforcement.