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I am just reading about this whole Automattic vs WP Engine fight today, and I'm a little surprised that most people seem to think Automattic is the unambiguous

I am just reading about this whole Automattic vs WP Engine fight today, and I'm a little surprised that most people seem to think Automattic is the unambiguous bad guy. Automattic has still given away a huge amount of open-source software away over the years. WP Engine seems like it is entirely a mercenary operation. (Which there's nothing wrong with, per se. But it doesn't exactly warm the cockles of my heart.) And paying people to leave if they don't agree with what the company is doing seems like a win-win.

ValentineC 2y ago
> WP Engine seems like it is entirely a mercenary operation. WP Engine also acquired and maintains Advanced Custom Fields [1] and Local [2] from their subsidiary Flywheel [3]. [1] https://deliciousbrains.com/wp-engine-acquisition/ https://deliciousbrains.com/wp-engine-acquisition/ [2] https://wpengine.com/blog/better-together-wp-engine-and-flywheel-make-local-and-genesis-products-available-to-all-customers/ https://wpengine.com/blog/better-together-wp-engine-and-flyw... [3] https://wpengine.com/blog/wp-engine-to-acquire-flywheel/ https://wpengine.com/blog/wp-engine-to-acquire-flywheel/
lolinder 2y ago
> Automattic is the unambiguous bad guy. I wouldn't say that's what people are saying. I've been a vocal critic of Matt's actions in these threads, and my perspective is basically this: WP Engine may be exactly as bad as Matt says it is. They may be contributing too little and taking too much. I've seen enough of corporations to believe that that can happen. None of that matters any more after Matt's actions in September. WP Engine has put forward convincing evidence that Matt attempted to extort them into paying tens of millions per year to Matt's for profit under threat of launching a smear campaign. Matt then demonstrated that the boundaries between Automattic (the for profit) and the open source project don't exist by locking millions of WordPress users out of the plugin ecosystem over this dispute with the for profit. That plugin ecosystem is the WordPress project. By messing about with that ecosystem Matt showed that he is both able and willing to singlehandedly screw over anyone who uses WordPress because he has a dispute with their hosting provider. That's the issue now. I don't see WP Engine as white knights fighting a villain, but Matt turned what could have been a united effort to improve the WordPress ecosystem into a battle between greedy corporations and it's Matt who showed that he doesn't care who gets caught in the crossfire. The issue isn't that Automattic is the unambiguous bad guy in this suit, it's that Matt has demonstrated he has more power than he can be trusted with.
- paulryanrogers 2y ago
  Did WPEngine maintain their own cache to lessen the load on WordPress.org's plugin repo? If not then that could be a significant cost, which a large hosting provider should cache to minimize their upstream footprint and improve the UX of their own customers. That said, it seems a modest trademark dispute has gotten way out of hand.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    Yeah, I'm really no longer interested in what WP Engine could or should have been doing. Matt's been trying really hard to distract everyone from the simple fact that he personally has a kill switch that can stop the flow of security updates to millions of WordPress sites and that he will use it. We host mirrors of NPM for many reasons, but fear that Microsoft will one day bar AWS customers from using the main registry isn't one of them. Matt doesn't get to use that button and stay a trusted component of anyone's supply chain.
- Aeolun 2y ago
  > WP Engine has put forward convincing evidence that Matt attempted to extort them into paying tens of millions per year I think it was Automattic that put forth that evidence? The literally posted the extortion letter on their blog, aiming to prove it wasn’t extortion at all.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    Yeah, that also happened... I'm referring to the cease and desist [0] and the subsequent complaint. They have texts from Matt all the way up until he's about to step on stage that appear to show him threatening to launch an enormous smear campaign against them starting with his speech if they don't agree. Just two examples: > I have 14 slides so far, working title for the talk: "How Private Equity can Hollow out and Destroy Open Source Communities, a Story in 4 Parts." > I've got quotes from current and former employees, some may even stand up and speak as well. And then, with a photo of the audience taken from on stage: > I'm literally waiting for them to finish the raffle so my talk can start, I can make it just a Q&A about WordPress very easily Matt's gone very public (some have suggested too public) with this lawsuit, but he hasn't provided any context that would make these texts look any better. [0] https://wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/Cease-and-Desist-Letter-to-Automattic-and-Request-to-Preserve-Documents-Sent.pdf https://wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/Cease-and-De...
throw16180339 2y ago
Automattic previously prevented 1.5 million sites from receiving security updates. Their latest move (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41751776 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41751776) is announcing a security hole in ACF, a WP Engine plugin, and preventing them from deploying a fix for it. This places 2+ million users at risk. Good guys wouldn't do either of these things. The sooner Matt is replaced or Automattic goes under the better.
aithrowawaycomm 2y ago
It is a complex story and "unambiguous bad guy," probably not. But if you had to draw sides... well, in most fairy tales the Good Guys don't try to extort and blackmail the Bad Guys with personal threats aimed directly at their livelihood: > The filing also includes a purported job offer from Mullenweg to WP Engine CEO Heather Brunner saying that if she declines to join Automattic, he’d tell the CEO of Silver Lake — the private equity firm that owns WP Engine. WP Engine referred us to the lawsuit when asked for comment. (via https://www.theverge.com/2024/10/4/24262232/matt-mullenweg-wordpress-org-wp-engine https://www.theverge.com/2024/10/4/24262232/matt-mullenweg-w...)

ValentineC 2y ago

> WP Engine seems like it is entirely a mercenary operation. WP Engine also acquired and maintains Advanced Custom Fields [1] and Local [2] from their subsidiary Flywheel [3]. [1] https://deliciousbrains.com/wp-engine-acquisition/ https://deliciousbrains.com/wp-engine-acquisition/ [2] https://wpengine.com/blog/better-together-wp-engine-and-flywheel-make-local-and-genesis-products-available-to-all-customers/ https://wpengine.com/blog/better-together-wp-engine-and-flyw... [3] https://wpengine.com/blog/wp-engine-to-acquire-flywheel/ https://wpengine.com/blog/wp-engine-to-acquire-flywheel/

lolinder 2y ago

> Automattic is the unambiguous bad guy. I wouldn't say that's what people are saying. I've been a vocal critic of Matt's actions in these threads, and my perspective is basically this: WP Engine may be exactly as bad as Matt says it is. They may be contributing too little and taking too much. I've seen enough of corporations to believe that that can happen. None of that matters any more after Matt's actions in September. WP Engine has put forward convincing evidence that Matt attempted to extort them into paying tens of millions per year to Matt's for profit under threat of launching a smear campaign. Matt then demonstrated that the boundaries between Automattic (the for profit) and the open source project don't exist by locking millions of WordPress users out of the plugin ecosystem over this dispute with the for profit. That plugin ecosystem is the WordPress project. By messing about with that ecosystem Matt showed that he is both able and willing to singlehandedly screw over anyone who uses WordPress because he has a dispute with their hosting provider. That's the issue now. I don't see WP Engine as white knights fighting a villain, but Matt turned what could have been a united effort to improve the WordPress ecosystem into a battle between greedy corporations and it's Matt who showed that he doesn't care who gets caught in the crossfire. The issue isn't that Automattic is the unambiguous bad guy in this suit, it's that Matt has demonstrated he has more power than he can be trusted with.

paulryanrogers 2y ago
Did WPEngine maintain their own cache to lessen the load on WordPress.org's plugin repo? If not then that could be a significant cost, which a large hosting provider should cache to minimize their upstream footprint and improve the UX of their own customers. That said, it seems a modest trademark dispute has gotten way out of hand.
- lolinder 2y ago
  Yeah, I'm really no longer interested in what WP Engine could or should have been doing. Matt's been trying really hard to distract everyone from the simple fact that he personally has a kill switch that can stop the flow of security updates to millions of WordPress sites and that he will use it. We host mirrors of NPM for many reasons, but fear that Microsoft will one day bar AWS customers from using the main registry isn't one of them. Matt doesn't get to use that button and stay a trusted component of anyone's supply chain.
Aeolun 2y ago
> WP Engine has put forward convincing evidence that Matt attempted to extort them into paying tens of millions per year I think it was Automattic that put forth that evidence? The literally posted the extortion letter on their blog, aiming to prove it wasn’t extortion at all.
- lolinder 2y ago
  Yeah, that also happened... I'm referring to the cease and desist [0] and the subsequent complaint. They have texts from Matt all the way up until he's about to step on stage that appear to show him threatening to launch an enormous smear campaign against them starting with his speech if they don't agree. Just two examples: > I have 14 slides so far, working title for the talk: "How Private Equity can Hollow out and Destroy Open Source Communities, a Story in 4 Parts." > I've got quotes from current and former employees, some may even stand up and speak as well. And then, with a photo of the audience taken from on stage: > I'm literally waiting for them to finish the raffle so my talk can start, I can make it just a Q&A about WordPress very easily Matt's gone very public (some have suggested too public) with this lawsuit, but he hasn't provided any context that would make these texts look any better. [0] https://wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/Cease-and-Desist-Letter-to-Automattic-and-Request-to-Preserve-Documents-Sent.pdf https://wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/Cease-and-De...

throw16180339 2y ago

Automattic previously prevented 1.5 million sites from receiving security updates. Their latest move (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41751776 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41751776) is announcing a security hole in ACF, a WP Engine plugin, and preventing them from deploying a fix for it. This places 2+ million users at risk. Good guys wouldn't do either of these things. The sooner Matt is replaced or Automattic goes under the better.

aithrowawaycomm 2y ago

It is a complex story and "unambiguous bad guy," probably not. But if you had to draw sides... well, in most fairy tales the Good Guys don't try to extort and blackmail the Bad Guys with personal threats aimed directly at their livelihood: > The filing also includes a purported job offer from Mullenweg to WP Engine CEO Heather Brunner saying that if she declines to join Automattic, he’d tell the CEO of Silver Lake — the private equity firm that owns WP Engine. WP Engine referred us to the lawsuit when asked for comment. (via https://www.theverge.com/2024/10/4/24262232/matt-mullenweg-wordpress-org-wp-engine https://www.theverge.com/2024/10/4/24262232/matt-mullenweg-w...)