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> In the US, about 1/5 children are hospitalized each year that don’t have a caregiver. Caregiver such as play therapists and parents’ stress can also affect ch

> In the US, about 1/5 children are hospitalized each year that don’t have a caregiver. Caregiver such as play therapists and parents’ stress can also affect children's emotions. Trust me, large language models are not anywhere close to being able to substitute as an effective parent, therapist, or caregiver. In fact, I'd wager any attempts to do so would have mostly _negative_ effects. I would implore you to reconsider this as a legitimate use case for your open device. > We believe this is a complement tool and it is not intended to replace anyone. Well which is it? Both issues you list heavily imply that your tool will serve as a de facto replacement. But then you finish by saying you don't intend to do that. So what aspects of the problems you listed will be solved as a simple "complement tool"?

zq2240 2y ago
Like in pederatic care, not every child has a parent who takes good care of them. In hospitals, it is more often play therapists who do this work, but their negative stress can also affect children's emotions. For example, some children feel very traumatized before doing line placement/blood test. This tool can help explain the specific process to them using empathic language and encourage them on specific topics. I mean doctors and play therapists still have to do their job, We have interviewed some doctors who feel particularly frustrated about how to comfort children before tests or surgeries. They hope for a tool can help building comfort for kids -> which means time is faster to run tests.
- tempodox 2y ago
  Ultimately, you are repackaging the services of actual LLM suppliers without having any knowledge or control of how those services might develop in the future. So it is logically and physically impossible for you to represent the fitness of those services for any purpose whatsoever. And anyone else you may have asked questions about this cannot either. I can only urge you to reconsider how honest, realistic, and credible those promises you make can possibly be. After all, you are playing with the lives and wellbeing of humans here. Every drug and therapeutic device has to go through rigorous vetting and testing before being cleared for human treatment. Ever heard of clinical trials? And you seriously think you can skip that with “we asked some pediatricians”? Please, think again. And ask someone with more domain knowledge than vague hopes in a technology they don't understand.
  - zq2240 2y ago
    Thanks for your feedback. I want to clarify that Starmoon is not being positioned as a therapeutic or medical device. Rather, it is intended as a supplementary tool that might potentially support emotional well-being, similar to how some doctors use YouTube videos to comfort kids for non-clinical support. Currently, we have agreements to pilot the product with a few hospitals in London to collect more data through trials to improve it.
    - tempodox 2y ago
      A doctor can look at a YT video and know what's in it. They can judge whether it's appropriate for a child to watch. No doctor can know what output LLMs will generate, it is impossible to verify that it will be safe. Contrary to your claim those things aren't similar at all.
      - akadeb 2y ago
        Thanks for this feedback. I hear what you are saying. If I understand correctly its like LLMs are a black box doctors dont understand and while it talks back in a friendly voice it can cause harm if it says something awful. While this is not likely due to our prompting it is not impossible either. Junru and I will discuss the approach with pediatric care based on this. And I agree having domain expertise/advisors to guide us in the right direction is important
        laylower 2y ago
        Maybe convert it to an offline version of furby instead. My position would be not to confound treating/medicine with a neat stuffed animal.
fragmede 2y ago
> Trust me, large language models are not anywhere close to being able to substitute as an effective parent, therapist, or caregiver. You're asking us to trust you, but why should we trust you in this matter? Regardless of if I think ChatGPT is any good at those things, you'd need some supporting evidence for that one way or another before continuing.
- throwaway314155 2y ago
  It's an expression. In this context I just meant "it should be obvious". Maybe try steel-manning my argument first. If you really can't see why that's likely the case after using a LLM yourself, then I'll be happy to admit that I'm making an emotional argument and you're in no way required to "trust me".
  - eddd-ddde 2y ago
    Honestly I don't see it as an "obvious" thing. I won't be surprised if in a couple more years this kind if thing is the norm. I don't think there's anything inherently different from a person that listens to you.
    - tempodox 2y ago
      I'm at a loss for words. If you really think there's no difference between a human and a machine, I don't know what to tell you.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      It wasn't obvious for a long time, but the closest we have to a relevant experiment* shows that physical contact is also necessary for parenting, especially soft contact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Harlow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Harlow Humanoid robots are improving, so I won't say "never", but I will say "not yet". Not in isolation at least. * and likely the closest we ever will, because it was disturbing enough to a big influence on animal welfare movement
  - fragmede 2y ago
szundi 2y ago
I had a quite good social sciences teacher. I never forget one of his remarks: There can be only one thing that is worse than someone not having a mother - that he has one. So maybe a chatty LLM is not the worse thing that can happen with someone.
- petee 2y ago
  Wow someone had a bad childhood...why even share that with your class?
  - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
    Why not?
    - noworriesnate 2y ago
      Because it's literally misrepresenting the facts.
      - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
        Misrepresenting that they had a bad childhood? What makes you think that's the case?
        noworriesnate 2y ago
        Here's the fact that's being presented: > There can be only one thing that is worse than someone not having a mother - that he has one. However, this is not accurate.
moralestapia 2y ago
>I would implore you to reconsider this as a legitimate use case for your open device. OP, I would implore you to not listen to any of this "advice" at all and just keep on building really nice things. I can already think of a dozen valuable applications of it in a therapheutic context. Ignore those who don't "do".
- brailsafe 2y ago
  > Ignore those who don't "do". I'm actually pretty ok with ignoring those who don't "think" before they "do", not that the OP is one of those people, but "doing" as a mark of virtue seems fairly likely destructive
  - zq2240 2y ago
    Thank you for all your advice.
  - moralestapia 2y ago
    One day of doing is worth a billion years of thinking. The world is material, not imaginary.
    - Nullabillity 2y ago
      There's nothing admirable about charging head-first in the wrong direction.
      - moralestapia 2y ago
        Perhaps you are a psychic but that is not my case. "Charging head-first", even in the wrong direction, is the only thing worth doing.
        RHSeeger 2y ago
        That type of logic is generally used to address the problem of being unwilling to act, for fear of making the decision; and it's reasonable in that context. But taking the time to understand the situation so that you can make the best decision possible (with the available information) is almost always beneficial.
Intralexical 2y ago
> In fact, I'd wager any attempts to do so would have mostly _negative_ effects. It does kinda send an interesting message to a child, doesn't it? "You're not worth the time of anybody human, so here's a machine instead." And that's before the chat even starts (and eventually goes off the rails).
- CryptoBanker 2y ago
  Might be a good lesson for the world they will enter…see the average customer support experience from large companies these days.
- edmundsauto 2y ago
  Wouldn't the alternate message be "you're not worth the time of anybody human or machine"? That seems strictly worse.
  - guappa 2y ago
    But they don't need a machine, they need a human :D
renewiltord 2y ago
[flagged]
- maeil 2y ago
  The machine in question is not based on a set of rules of better quality. It regurgitates the average of the exact humans you're talking of. This is no improvement.
  - renewiltord 2y ago
    No. It regurgitates the average of all humans represented in the text record available. These humans are 80% using therapists. The average human is not.
    - maeil 2y ago
      It regurgitates the average human completion of a certain text/sentence. Guess which humans have been writing the average text related to these subjects. Not plumbers and bakers.
- arresin 2y ago
  Fully agree. I think one thing future generations will look back on us with disgust is how flippantly we care for children. With an LLM we have at least a chance of instilling the right values, providing the right answers to questions, etc.
  - nradov 2y ago
    No one knows what the "right" values are, least of all an LLM.
    - arresin 2y ago
      We can get close. And heaps closer than the alternative.
lancesells 2y ago
I'm not trying to shit on this but the world seems to have jumped headfirst into dystopian Black Mirror episodes. It looks like people too young for children thinking AI technology is the answer. Again, not shitting on the people creating this and this is the forum for it, but I feel all of this is just such a wrong direction for people and humanity in general.

zq2240 2y ago

Like in pederatic care, not every child has a parent who takes good care of them. In hospitals, it is more often play therapists who do this work, but their negative stress can also affect children's emotions. For example, some children feel very traumatized before doing line placement/blood test. This tool can help explain the specific process to them using empathic language and encourage them on specific topics. I mean doctors and play therapists still have to do their job, We have interviewed some doctors who feel particularly frustrated about how to comfort children before tests or surgeries. They hope for a tool can help building comfort for kids -> which means time is faster to run tests.

tempodox 2y ago
Ultimately, you are repackaging the services of actual LLM suppliers without having any knowledge or control of how those services might develop in the future. So it is logically and physically impossible for you to represent the fitness of those services for any purpose whatsoever. And anyone else you may have asked questions about this cannot either. I can only urge you to reconsider how honest, realistic, and credible those promises you make can possibly be. After all, you are playing with the lives and wellbeing of humans here. Every drug and therapeutic device has to go through rigorous vetting and testing before being cleared for human treatment. Ever heard of clinical trials? And you seriously think you can skip that with “we asked some pediatricians”? Please, think again. And ask someone with more domain knowledge than vague hopes in a technology they don't understand.
- zq2240 2y ago
  Thanks for your feedback. I want to clarify that Starmoon is not being positioned as a therapeutic or medical device. Rather, it is intended as a supplementary tool that might potentially support emotional well-being, similar to how some doctors use YouTube videos to comfort kids for non-clinical support. Currently, we have agreements to pilot the product with a few hospitals in London to collect more data through trials to improve it.
  - tempodox 2y ago
    A doctor can look at a YT video and know what's in it. They can judge whether it's appropriate for a child to watch. No doctor can know what output LLMs will generate, it is impossible to verify that it will be safe. Contrary to your claim those things aren't similar at all.
    - akadeb 2y ago
      Thanks for this feedback. I hear what you are saying. If I understand correctly its like LLMs are a black box doctors dont understand and while it talks back in a friendly voice it can cause harm if it says something awful. While this is not likely due to our prompting it is not impossible either. Junru and I will discuss the approach with pediatric care based on this. And I agree having domain expertise/advisors to guide us in the right direction is important
      - laylower 2y ago
        Maybe convert it to an offline version of furby instead. My position would be not to confound treating/medicine with a neat stuffed animal.

fragmede 2y ago

> Trust me, large language models are not anywhere close to being able to substitute as an effective parent, therapist, or caregiver. You're asking us to trust you, but why should we trust you in this matter? Regardless of if I think ChatGPT is any good at those things, you'd need some supporting evidence for that one way or another before continuing.

throwaway314155 2y ago
It's an expression. In this context I just meant "it should be obvious". Maybe try steel-manning my argument first. If you really can't see why that's likely the case after using a LLM yourself, then I'll be happy to admit that I'm making an emotional argument and you're in no way required to "trust me".
- eddd-ddde 2y ago
  Honestly I don't see it as an "obvious" thing. I won't be surprised if in a couple more years this kind if thing is the norm. I don't think there's anything inherently different from a person that listens to you.
  - tempodox 2y ago
    I'm at a loss for words. If you really think there's no difference between a human and a machine, I don't know what to tell you.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    It wasn't obvious for a long time, but the closest we have to a relevant experiment* shows that physical contact is also necessary for parenting, especially soft contact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Harlow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Harlow Humanoid robots are improving, so I won't say "never", but I will say "not yet". Not in isolation at least. * and likely the closest we ever will, because it was disturbing enough to a big influence on animal welfare movement
- fragmede 2y ago

szundi 2y ago

I had a quite good social sciences teacher. I never forget one of his remarks: There can be only one thing that is worse than someone not having a mother - that he has one. So maybe a chatty LLM is not the worse thing that can happen with someone.

petee 2y ago
Wow someone had a bad childhood...why even share that with your class?
- HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
  Why not?
  - noworriesnate 2y ago
    Because it's literally misrepresenting the facts.
    - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
      Misrepresenting that they had a bad childhood? What makes you think that's the case?
      - noworriesnate 2y ago
        Here's the fact that's being presented: > There can be only one thing that is worse than someone not having a mother - that he has one. However, this is not accurate.

moralestapia 2y ago

>I would implore you to reconsider this as a legitimate use case for your open device. OP, I would implore you to not listen to any of this "advice" at all and just keep on building really nice things. I can already think of a dozen valuable applications of it in a therapheutic context. Ignore those who don't "do".

brailsafe 2y ago
> Ignore those who don't "do". I'm actually pretty ok with ignoring those who don't "think" before they "do", not that the OP is one of those people, but "doing" as a mark of virtue seems fairly likely destructive
- zq2240 2y ago
  Thank you for all your advice.
- moralestapia 2y ago
  One day of doing is worth a billion years of thinking. The world is material, not imaginary.
  - Nullabillity 2y ago
    There's nothing admirable about charging head-first in the wrong direction.
    - moralestapia 2y ago
      Perhaps you are a psychic but that is not my case. "Charging head-first", even in the wrong direction, is the only thing worth doing.
      - RHSeeger 2y ago
        That type of logic is generally used to address the problem of being unwilling to act, for fear of making the decision; and it's reasonable in that context. But taking the time to understand the situation so that you can make the best decision possible (with the available information) is almost always beneficial.

Intralexical 2y ago

> In fact, I'd wager any attempts to do so would have mostly _negative_ effects. It does kinda send an interesting message to a child, doesn't it? "You're not worth the time of anybody human, so here's a machine instead." And that's before the chat even starts (and eventually goes off the rails).

CryptoBanker 2y ago
Might be a good lesson for the world they will enter…see the average customer support experience from large companies these days.
edmundsauto 2y ago
Wouldn't the alternate message be "you're not worth the time of anybody human or machine"? That seems strictly worse.
- guappa 2y ago
  But they don't need a machine, they need a human :D

renewiltord 2y ago

[flagged]

maeil 2y ago
The machine in question is not based on a set of rules of better quality. It regurgitates the average of the exact humans you're talking of. This is no improvement.
- renewiltord 2y ago
  No. It regurgitates the average of all humans represented in the text record available. These humans are 80% using therapists. The average human is not.
  - maeil 2y ago
    It regurgitates the average human completion of a certain text/sentence. Guess which humans have been writing the average text related to these subjects. Not plumbers and bakers.
arresin 2y ago
Fully agree. I think one thing future generations will look back on us with disgust is how flippantly we care for children. With an LLM we have at least a chance of instilling the right values, providing the right answers to questions, etc.
- nradov 2y ago
  No one knows what the "right" values are, least of all an LLM.
  - arresin 2y ago
    We can get close. And heaps closer than the alternative.

lancesells 2y ago

I'm not trying to shit on this but the world seems to have jumped headfirst into dystopian Black Mirror episodes. It looks like people too young for children thinking AI technology is the answer. Again, not shitting on the people creating this and this is the forum for it, but I feel all of this is just such a wrong direction for people and humanity in general.