7 ms·

Concluding "who's worse" wasn't the point of this paper, it was to implement some automated analysis based on old social science models. But, I'm surprised you

Concluding "who's worse" wasn't the point of this paper, it was to implement some automated analysis based on old social science models. But, I'm surprised you conclude what you do because the high level findings seem to indicate that Russia war bloggers are more prone to the more extreme forms of "otherization" per the 4 degrees laid out in the model -- e.g. figure 7 shows Russian war bloggers significantly (but not massively) overindex on the 3rd (Villainization) and 4th (Dehumanization) degrees, which are the worse of the two, compared to Ukrainian war bloggers, who only overindex on the 2nd degree (Survival or Security). Additionally, Table 4 shows Telegram channels that are more prone to otherization are more central (more influential) in the Russian blogger network than they are in the Ukrainian blogger network, as summarized by the line: "The results, shown in Table 4, reveal statistically significant correlations for both degree centrality and eigenvector centrality and the use of othering language by both groups of war bloggers, with a stronger correlation among Russian war bloggers."

ossobuco 2y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- FooBarBizBazz 2y ago
  I've noticed this too, and it seemed like dumb propaganda on the part of the Ukranians. When you hear someone describing their enemies in cartoonishly dehumanizing terms, it doesn't really increase your respect for them (the speaker). On the other hand, if your town was flattened, your family was killed, and you've been living in your basement for the last year, maybe that's just how you're going to be. Maybe no other response is reasonable. (I still think "orc" is weak though. Something real would be stronger. Even just "beasts". Though, animals are frequently nice. "Monster" is a little metaphorical, but, monsters are also real (in that metaphorical sense). That might be stronger.)
  - metabagel 2y ago
    Orcs attack in hordes and fight battles. It’s an apt description for the Russian “meat wave” attacks.
  - Muromec 2y ago
    You don't want to know what is actually used when "orc" is not enough.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    The term originated due to their disorganized, unprofessional, looting heavy behaviors. It has gained prominence in the 2022 invasion mostly because of how pathetic they are. One of the famous quotes of the war is “We’re lucky they’re so fucking stupid”. Which is entirely correct. The understanding of the war from the Ukrainian side is that the Russian army is a huge, dumb horde that vastly underperforms for its size. That doesn’t mean it’s not dangerous. But we’re years into this three day special military operation and we still see laughably wasteful efforts by the Russian military every week. Hordes of people running and driving through open fields against artillery strikes and FPV drones and suffering 90% casualties is the canonical mental image these days.
    - orbital-decay 2y ago
      >It has gained prominence in the 2022 invasion See the problem, that is incorrect. The term has been in use long before 2022. Originally it was coined during the 2015, and meant to be used for both sides due to how miserable and incompetent the entire thing looked (and was). That is the problem with the paper in question as well - authors don't seem to be familiar with the topic they're trying to research, thinking it's a single event. The timeframe in the dataset is 2015 to mid-2023, which makes very little sense. The use of Telegram for war reporting and the language have been completely different at various points of this timeframe. To add insult to injury, they are labeling various channels as pro-R or pro-U based on recent messages, but certain channels literally switched sides. They (and many others as well) wiped their message history multiple times, came back with slightly or completely different narratives, and their actual history can only be found in one of the Telegram-related cache services, if at all, as some of these services are either long dead or the info didn't survive. Some people who have been trying to profit from the war started multiple pro-R and pro-U media, including the Telegram channels, although 2022 quickly made them choose sides. So much happened in 8 years they tried to shove into an LLM and do a primitive sentiment analysis. Gathering the full picture on this timeframe should have been their main thing, as it's not trivial. Just like with anything on the internet and in real life across 8 years, especially if you don't speak any of the languages. These results are not going to be accurate.
- cynicalsecurity 2y ago
  Maybe because Ukrainians are right about Russians? Killing innocent people and starting an aggressive war for land and power somehow justifies them being called orcs, don't you think so?
  - ossobuco 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - metabagel 2y ago
      To be clear, Ukraine was invaded, children kidnapped, summary executions, and women raped by the Russian soldiers. Plus, Russia launched missile strikes against hospitals, schools, apartment buildings, playgrounds, and supermarkets. Plus, indiscriminate glide bomb attacks against cities. I occasionally call them orcs too. It’s an apt description.
      - ossobuco 2y ago
        [flagged]
        metabagel 2y ago
        No, the U.S. has not done worse than Russia has in this war. Not even in Vietnam, I think. But, I guess we were orcs when we invaded and occupied Iraq, since we had no business being there. With regard to Israelis, any sort of othering will be perceived as antisemitism. But, what Israel is doing in Gaza is on par with what Russia is doing in Ukraine.
        ossobuco 2y ago
        > No, the U.S. has not done worse than Russia has in this war. Not even in Vietnam, I think. Rethink[0]. It just takes some basic math to understand that the USA has done much worse, even if we just consider civilian deaths estimates. Hundreds of thousands of civilians were killed in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos. And for what, to stop communism? Is that a valid reason to devastate three countries? > But, I guess we were orcs when we invaded and occupied Iraq Orcs once, orcs forever. Isn't that how it works? If you can call an entire population "orcs", then there must be some intrinsic evil rooted in their ethnicity, culture, or whatever it is. - [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#Deaths_caused_by_the_American_military https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#Deaths_...
- oneshtein 2y ago
  The difference is that Ukrainians started to use bad names for Russian soldiers after invasion, while Russians use bad words for all nations they know long before the war. PS. War is much much simpler than peace. If you have good words for invaders — then you're traitor.
  - protomolecule 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      Just as Ukrainians have ethnic slurs for Jews [2], for example. What's that supposed to prove? The Russian language has its share as well of course, and guess what -- the most common one is identical to the same term as used in Ukrainian: At the 23 February 2006 rally celebrating the Soviet Defenders of the Fatherland Day, a yearly tribute to war veterans, according to the newspaper Kommersant, marchers flourished signs with messages including "Zhyds! Stop drinking Russian blood!", "White State!", and "Russian Government for Russia".[13] The vastly bigger point is that antisemitism has been on the decline (and officially discouraged) in both countries for quite some time, of course. My direct sources on the matter in Ukraine (i.e. Ukrainian Jews) uniformly and adamantly maintain that, while there was a bit of an upswell in the late Soviet era, by now it is so vastly reduced as to be a non-issue. I'll definitely take their word over yours, any day.
      - oneshtein 2y ago
        Also, note that Jude is slur in Russian language, but common word in Ukrainian language, for example Zhydachiv[1] (Жидачів) town means "town of Judes", and so on. This is common source of frustration back then (about 100 years ago, when Russians occupied Western Ukraine), and now, when usage of word slowly returns back to norm. [1]: https://zhidachiv-miskrada.gov.ua/ https://zhidachiv-miskrada.gov.ua/
- libertine 2y ago
  Well your personal experience might seem a bit off, or biased (?) because lot of Russians address Ukrainians as "Khokhols"[0]. Not since the war, but since Russians have oppressed Ukrainians. It's quite a normalized and promoted slur, online and offline. It's a culturally derogatory term like you have common slurs that were used to designate some ethnicities or races, like Chechens. These are cultural slurs, unlike "orcs" as an online slur which is a Western term, from a Western reference. I think you should look more into how Russia has dehumanized some of its ethnic minorities within the Federation and its neighbors throughout the years and how it has until today. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Ukrainian_sentiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Ukrainian_sentiment
  - ossobuco 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - libertine 2y ago
      Ah, I see where you're coming from... say no more. So you're saying that some cultural symbol used in a derogatory manner to address the "Little Russians".. inferiors to Russia... is humanizing and a show of equal brotherly love? You chose to empty the word of the meaning into a simple hairstyle, much like the Nazis just made use of cultural symbols to address the Jewish or Polish people. It doesn't look like you're not being honest. It's funny because that's one of the Russian twists in their propaganda, "let's focus on the subjective meaning of words... and not the actions!". Here's my take on it, if someone goes into someone else land to erase their culture and kill as many people as possible, terrorizing them, and trying to make their living unbearable while addressing them by an ethnic slur, I'd say that's enough of a sign of dehumanization.
      - ossobuco 2y ago
        I guess you stopped reading at "hairstyle" and completely missed the ethnic slur part.
        2y ago
- jncfhnb 2y ago
  Russian usage of Nazis is specific the Russian history of defending against the Nazis in WWII. It’s not like in the west. In Russia it’s a patriotic thing to imply that Russia is acting in self defense and justify their actions to the public. Russian propaganda to Russians is about convincing them it’s not a genocidal land grab.
  - protomolecule 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - jncfhnb 2y ago
      The mass graves of civilians, mass deportation of children, erasure of cultural artifacts, leveling of cities, constant bombing of civilian targets, reeducation efforts beg to differ. You can rightly fuck off.
    - jemmyw 2y ago
      Is it? Putin has said he doesn't believe Ukraine to be a nation or Ukrainians to be a separate people. Genocide is the crime of erasing a culture. It does not mean killing everyone, although that's one way to commit genocide. So it actually seems like the correct use of the word. It's the popular interpretation that is incorrect.
      - protomolecule 2y ago
        >Genocide is the crime of erasing a culture. Wrong. Here is the definition: https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition
        aguaviva 2y ago
        The parent comment to yours was apparently referring to "cultural genocide", which is apparently what you're nitpicking them on. Meanwhile we have the infinitely greater fact that the aggressor is most likely guilty on all 5 counts of the definition you do cite (point 4 may be somewhat debatable, but its culpability on the other counts is beyond dispute by this point): Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: 1. Killing members of the group; 2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; 3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; 4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; 5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group See also: https://icj-cij.org/case/182 https://icj-cij.org/case/182
- EasyMark 2y ago
  I tend to give those who are being invaded and genocided a little leeway in being angry and expressing anger/name-calling at their oppressors & murderers. This could end tomorrow if Russia pulls out or starts pulling back. I think it all boils down to that in the end, and it really is quite simple. The article however is still quite interesting as a study of propaganda.
ossobuco 2y ago
Personal experience, but pro-Ukrainian accounts/channels are much worse in terms of "Othering", be it justified or not. There is a widespread tendence to call Russians a variety of names, such as "Orcs"[0], "Cockroaches", and "Zombies". On the other hand I often see pro-Russian accounts define Ukrainians as "Nazis". The main difference is that Nazis is used as a political connotation and is usually referred to Ukrainian politicians and military members. Russian propaganda carefully describes the Ukrainian population as relatives captive of a far-right dictatorship. Ukrainian propaganda instead frequently dehumanizes the Russian population. - [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(slang) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(slang)
- wiseowise 2y ago
  > The main difference is that Nazis is used as a political connotation and is usually referred to Ukrainian politicians and military members. Russian propaganda carefully describes the Ukrainian population as relatives captive of a far-right dictatorship. Ukrainian propaganda instead frequently dehumanizes the Russian population. Straight up lie. Russians dehumanized Ukrainians for decades. Khokli, Saloedi (pork fat eaters), chubatie (derogatory remark about cultural Cossack haircut), Petlurivci (reference to Petlura), Benderivci (Stepsn Bendera reference). I can continue for a very long while.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    Care to name any more? That'd be greatly appreciated. Preferably in Cyrillic if possible. (As for why: let's just say it's for a science project).
    - wiseowise 2y ago
      Have "fun". The stuff in the article represents just a small fraction of disgusting stuff I've read over years. DISCLAIMER: The link contains vile and evil text, you've been warned. https://neolurk.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BB%D1%8B https://neolurk.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BB%D1%8B

ossobuco 2y ago

[flagged]

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
FooBarBizBazz 2y ago
I've noticed this too, and it seemed like dumb propaganda on the part of the Ukranians. When you hear someone describing their enemies in cartoonishly dehumanizing terms, it doesn't really increase your respect for them (the speaker). On the other hand, if your town was flattened, your family was killed, and you've been living in your basement for the last year, maybe that's just how you're going to be. Maybe no other response is reasonable. (I still think "orc" is weak though. Something real would be stronger. Even just "beasts". Though, animals are frequently nice. "Monster" is a little metaphorical, but, monsters are also real (in that metaphorical sense). That might be stronger.)
- metabagel 2y ago
  Orcs attack in hordes and fight battles. It’s an apt description for the Russian “meat wave” attacks.
- Muromec 2y ago
  You don't want to know what is actually used when "orc" is not enough.
- jncfhnb 2y ago
  The term originated due to their disorganized, unprofessional, looting heavy behaviors. It has gained prominence in the 2022 invasion mostly because of how pathetic they are. One of the famous quotes of the war is “We’re lucky they’re so fucking stupid”. Which is entirely correct. The understanding of the war from the Ukrainian side is that the Russian army is a huge, dumb horde that vastly underperforms for its size. That doesn’t mean it’s not dangerous. But we’re years into this three day special military operation and we still see laughably wasteful efforts by the Russian military every week. Hordes of people running and driving through open fields against artillery strikes and FPV drones and suffering 90% casualties is the canonical mental image these days.
  - orbital-decay 2y ago
    >It has gained prominence in the 2022 invasion See the problem, that is incorrect. The term has been in use long before 2022. Originally it was coined during the 2015, and meant to be used for both sides due to how miserable and incompetent the entire thing looked (and was). That is the problem with the paper in question as well - authors don't seem to be familiar with the topic they're trying to research, thinking it's a single event. The timeframe in the dataset is 2015 to mid-2023, which makes very little sense. The use of Telegram for war reporting and the language have been completely different at various points of this timeframe. To add insult to injury, they are labeling various channels as pro-R or pro-U based on recent messages, but certain channels literally switched sides. They (and many others as well) wiped their message history multiple times, came back with slightly or completely different narratives, and their actual history can only be found in one of the Telegram-related cache services, if at all, as some of these services are either long dead or the info didn't survive. Some people who have been trying to profit from the war started multiple pro-R and pro-U media, including the Telegram channels, although 2022 quickly made them choose sides. So much happened in 8 years they tried to shove into an LLM and do a primitive sentiment analysis. Gathering the full picture on this timeframe should have been their main thing, as it's not trivial. Just like with anything on the internet and in real life across 8 years, especially if you don't speak any of the languages. These results are not going to be accurate.
cynicalsecurity 2y ago
Maybe because Ukrainians are right about Russians? Killing innocent people and starting an aggressive war for land and power somehow justifies them being called orcs, don't you think so?
- ossobuco 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - metabagel 2y ago
    To be clear, Ukraine was invaded, children kidnapped, summary executions, and women raped by the Russian soldiers. Plus, Russia launched missile strikes against hospitals, schools, apartment buildings, playgrounds, and supermarkets. Plus, indiscriminate glide bomb attacks against cities. I occasionally call them orcs too. It’s an apt description.
    - ossobuco 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - metabagel 2y ago
        No, the U.S. has not done worse than Russia has in this war. Not even in Vietnam, I think. But, I guess we were orcs when we invaded and occupied Iraq, since we had no business being there. With regard to Israelis, any sort of othering will be perceived as antisemitism. But, what Israel is doing in Gaza is on par with what Russia is doing in Ukraine.
        ossobuco 2y ago
        > No, the U.S. has not done worse than Russia has in this war. Not even in Vietnam, I think. Rethink[0]. It just takes some basic math to understand that the USA has done much worse, even if we just consider civilian deaths estimates. Hundreds of thousands of civilians were killed in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos. And for what, to stop communism? Is that a valid reason to devastate three countries? > But, I guess we were orcs when we invaded and occupied Iraq Orcs once, orcs forever. Isn't that how it works? If you can call an entire population "orcs", then there must be some intrinsic evil rooted in their ethnicity, culture, or whatever it is. - [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#Deaths_caused_by_the_American_military https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#Deaths_...
oneshtein 2y ago
The difference is that Ukrainians started to use bad names for Russian soldiers after invasion, while Russians use bad words for all nations they know long before the war. PS. War is much much simpler than peace. If you have good words for invaders — then you're traitor.
- protomolecule 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    Just as Ukrainians have ethnic slurs for Jews [2], for example. What's that supposed to prove? The Russian language has its share as well of course, and guess what -- the most common one is identical to the same term as used in Ukrainian: At the 23 February 2006 rally celebrating the Soviet Defenders of the Fatherland Day, a yearly tribute to war veterans, according to the newspaper Kommersant, marchers flourished signs with messages including "Zhyds! Stop drinking Russian blood!", "White State!", and "Russian Government for Russia".[13] The vastly bigger point is that antisemitism has been on the decline (and officially discouraged) in both countries for quite some time, of course. My direct sources on the matter in Ukraine (i.e. Ukrainian Jews) uniformly and adamantly maintain that, while there was a bit of an upswell in the late Soviet era, by now it is so vastly reduced as to be a non-issue. I'll definitely take their word over yours, any day.
    - oneshtein 2y ago
      Also, note that Jude is slur in Russian language, but common word in Ukrainian language, for example Zhydachiv[1] (Жидачів) town means "town of Judes", and so on. This is common source of frustration back then (about 100 years ago, when Russians occupied Western Ukraine), and now, when usage of word slowly returns back to norm. [1]: https://zhidachiv-miskrada.gov.ua/ https://zhidachiv-miskrada.gov.ua/
libertine 2y ago
Well your personal experience might seem a bit off, or biased (?) because lot of Russians address Ukrainians as "Khokhols"[0]. Not since the war, but since Russians have oppressed Ukrainians. It's quite a normalized and promoted slur, online and offline. It's a culturally derogatory term like you have common slurs that were used to designate some ethnicities or races, like Chechens. These are cultural slurs, unlike "orcs" as an online slur which is a Western term, from a Western reference. I think you should look more into how Russia has dehumanized some of its ethnic minorities within the Federation and its neighbors throughout the years and how it has until today. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Ukrainian_sentiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Ukrainian_sentiment
- ossobuco 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - libertine 2y ago
    Ah, I see where you're coming from... say no more. So you're saying that some cultural symbol used in a derogatory manner to address the "Little Russians".. inferiors to Russia... is humanizing and a show of equal brotherly love? You chose to empty the word of the meaning into a simple hairstyle, much like the Nazis just made use of cultural symbols to address the Jewish or Polish people. It doesn't look like you're not being honest. It's funny because that's one of the Russian twists in their propaganda, "let's focus on the subjective meaning of words... and not the actions!". Here's my take on it, if someone goes into someone else land to erase their culture and kill as many people as possible, terrorizing them, and trying to make their living unbearable while addressing them by an ethnic slur, I'd say that's enough of a sign of dehumanization.
    - ossobuco 2y ago
      I guess you stopped reading at "hairstyle" and completely missed the ethnic slur part.
      - 2y ago
jncfhnb 2y ago
Russian usage of Nazis is specific the Russian history of defending against the Nazis in WWII. It’s not like in the west. In Russia it’s a patriotic thing to imply that Russia is acting in self defense and justify their actions to the public. Russian propaganda to Russians is about convincing them it’s not a genocidal land grab.
- protomolecule 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    The mass graves of civilians, mass deportation of children, erasure of cultural artifacts, leveling of cities, constant bombing of civilian targets, reeducation efforts beg to differ. You can rightly fuck off.
  - jemmyw 2y ago
    Is it? Putin has said he doesn't believe Ukraine to be a nation or Ukrainians to be a separate people. Genocide is the crime of erasing a culture. It does not mean killing everyone, although that's one way to commit genocide. So it actually seems like the correct use of the word. It's the popular interpretation that is incorrect.
    - protomolecule 2y ago
      >Genocide is the crime of erasing a culture. Wrong. Here is the definition: https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        The parent comment to yours was apparently referring to "cultural genocide", which is apparently what you're nitpicking them on. Meanwhile we have the infinitely greater fact that the aggressor is most likely guilty on all 5 counts of the definition you do cite (point 4 may be somewhat debatable, but its culpability on the other counts is beyond dispute by this point): Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: 1. Killing members of the group; 2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; 3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; 4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; 5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group See also: https://icj-cij.org/case/182 https://icj-cij.org/case/182
EasyMark 2y ago
I tend to give those who are being invaded and genocided a little leeway in being angry and expressing anger/name-calling at their oppressors & murderers. This could end tomorrow if Russia pulls out or starts pulling back. I think it all boils down to that in the end, and it really is quite simple. The article however is still quite interesting as a study of propaganda.

ossobuco 2y ago

Personal experience, but pro-Ukrainian accounts/channels are much worse in terms of "Othering", be it justified or not. There is a widespread tendence to call Russians a variety of names, such as "Orcs"[0], "Cockroaches", and "Zombies". On the other hand I often see pro-Russian accounts define Ukrainians as "Nazis". The main difference is that Nazis is used as a political connotation and is usually referred to Ukrainian politicians and military members. Russian propaganda carefully describes the Ukrainian population as relatives captive of a far-right dictatorship. Ukrainian propaganda instead frequently dehumanizes the Russian population. - [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(slang) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(slang)

wiseowise 2y ago
> The main difference is that Nazis is used as a political connotation and is usually referred to Ukrainian politicians and military members. Russian propaganda carefully describes the Ukrainian population as relatives captive of a far-right dictatorship. Ukrainian propaganda instead frequently dehumanizes the Russian population. Straight up lie. Russians dehumanized Ukrainians for decades. Khokli, Saloedi (pork fat eaters), chubatie (derogatory remark about cultural Cossack haircut), Petlurivci (reference to Petlura), Benderivci (Stepsn Bendera reference). I can continue for a very long while.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  Care to name any more? That'd be greatly appreciated. Preferably in Cyrillic if possible. (As for why: let's just say it's for a science project).
  - wiseowise 2y ago
    Have "fun". The stuff in the article represents just a small fraction of disgusting stuff I've read over years. DISCLAIMER: The link contains vile and evil text, you've been warned. https://neolurk.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BB%D1%8B https://neolurk.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BB%D1%8B