5 ms·

Next will we find that there is an exchange of microbes between the brain and gut?

krageon 2y ago
We can take it one step further: There are microbes everywhere in your body, they matter and they do things. When you take them away or fuck with them too much, weird things start happening. It is I think not a particularly surprising take. But then often it can be valuable to have things that are kind of obvious codified into a paper of some sort so that we no longer have to rely on "but isn't that obvious?" and can instead point to some primary source that actually explains what is true. That way it can be true for everyone, even the people for whom it wasn't already obvious.
- dartos 2y ago
  The most foundational science is pretty obvious after all. We all know that apples fall from trees and that banging 2 rocks together makes sparks.
  - albumen 2y ago
    It's obvious from apples falling from trees that gravity is actually the curvature of spacetime?
    - dartos 2y ago
      I think maybe “foundation” was the wrong word. Maybe origins? My point was that the basic ideas that have been studied and refined over centuries were simple.
  - passwordoops 2y ago
    Not all rocks (at least using human strength)
- hinoki 2y ago
  Is there any evidence (yet?) of an autoimmune disease caused by the immune system accidentally attacking part of the micro-biome?
  - FollowingTheDao 2y ago
    The immune systems does nothing by accident. The immune system is always trying to keep the microbiome in balance and the microbiome helps the immune system as well. There is no winning, only balance.
  - foobarbecue 2y ago
    Great question. Not that I have heard of.
  - hanniabu 2y ago
    Idk if there's evidence of it but I know many people claim they developed celiac disease after a course of black label antibiotics
  - krageon 2y ago
    Yes, as far as I know. I thought this was a nice overview: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6300652/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6300652/
codetrotter 2y ago
I’ve got a gut feeling that we will. A gut feeling in my brain.
giantg2 2y ago
Of course. Gut microbes to blood via leaky gut, small enough blood microbes to brain via BBB.
- xattt 2y ago
  That’s the purpose of the BBB, which breaks down in hypoxia and cell death.
- dghughes 2y ago
  So-called " leaky gut" is hogwash pushed by quacks. It's what influencers push on TikTok or at least their interpretation of it. https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/medical-critical-thinking/you-probably-dont-have-leaky-gut https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/medical-critical-thinking/...
  - giantg2 2y ago
    Sure, leaky gut as a diagnosis is a misapplication for the science. What is real is varying permeability of the intestinal lining in all humans.
    - epcoa 2y ago
      Varying intestinal permeability has usually been related to inert compounds. More recently there has been some study on the significance of certain microbe metabolites, but the evidence for any kind of large scale microbial translocation in people that are not very sick (ie septic) is extremely tenuous. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10059777/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10059777/ "Key controversies in blood microbiome research are the susceptibility of low-biomass samples to exogenous contamination and undetermined microbial viability from NGS-based microbial profiling" Just because you can amplify some sporadic bacteria DNA from the blood does not mean that bacteria are hanging out in the blood in a physiologically meaningful way. A lot of it is frankly junk science in disreputable journals. On the otherhand: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-023-01350-w https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-023-01350-w "Despite this, we found no evidence for microbial co-occurrence relationships, core species or associations with host phenotypes."
readthenotes1 2y ago
They used to, but then they built the vagus nerve

We can take it one step further: There are microbes everywhere in your body, they matter and they do things. When you take them away or fuck with them too much, weird things start happening. It is I think not a particularly surprising take. But then often it can be valuable to have things that are kind of obvious codified into a paper of some sort so that we no longer have to rely on "but isn't that obvious?" and can instead point to some primary source that actually explains what is true. That way it can be true for everyone, even the people for whom it wasn't already obvious.

dartos 2y ago
The most foundational science is pretty obvious after all. We all know that apples fall from trees and that banging 2 rocks together makes sparks.
- albumen 2y ago
  It's obvious from apples falling from trees that gravity is actually the curvature of spacetime?
  - dartos 2y ago
    I think maybe “foundation” was the wrong word. Maybe origins? My point was that the basic ideas that have been studied and refined over centuries were simple.
- passwordoops 2y ago
  Not all rocks (at least using human strength)
hinoki 2y ago
Is there any evidence (yet?) of an autoimmune disease caused by the immune system accidentally attacking part of the micro-biome?
- FollowingTheDao 2y ago
  The immune systems does nothing by accident. The immune system is always trying to keep the microbiome in balance and the microbiome helps the immune system as well. There is no winning, only balance.
- foobarbecue 2y ago
  Great question. Not that I have heard of.
- hanniabu 2y ago
  Idk if there's evidence of it but I know many people claim they developed celiac disease after a course of black label antibiotics
- krageon 2y ago
  Yes, as far as I know. I thought this was a nice overview: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6300652/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6300652/

codetrotter 2y ago

I’ve got a gut feeling that we will. A gut feeling in my brain.

giantg2 2y ago

Of course. Gut microbes to blood via leaky gut, small enough blood microbes to brain via BBB.

xattt 2y ago
That’s the purpose of the BBB, which breaks down in hypoxia and cell death.
dghughes 2y ago
So-called " leaky gut" is hogwash pushed by quacks. It's what influencers push on TikTok or at least their interpretation of it. https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/medical-critical-thinking/you-probably-dont-have-leaky-gut https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/medical-critical-thinking/...
- giantg2 2y ago
  Sure, leaky gut as a diagnosis is a misapplication for the science. What is real is varying permeability of the intestinal lining in all humans.
  - epcoa 2y ago
    Varying intestinal permeability has usually been related to inert compounds. More recently there has been some study on the significance of certain microbe metabolites, but the evidence for any kind of large scale microbial translocation in people that are not very sick (ie septic) is extremely tenuous. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10059777/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10059777/ "Key controversies in blood microbiome research are the susceptibility of low-biomass samples to exogenous contamination and undetermined microbial viability from NGS-based microbial profiling" Just because you can amplify some sporadic bacteria DNA from the blood does not mean that bacteria are hanging out in the blood in a physiologically meaningful way. A lot of it is frankly junk science in disreputable journals. On the otherhand: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-023-01350-w https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-023-01350-w "Despite this, we found no evidence for microbial co-occurrence relationships, core species or associations with host phenotypes."

readthenotes1 2y ago

They used to, but then they built the vagus nerve